Wait! Blogs Aren’t Fully Accessible, Either!
Commentary: This is a post created last Feb when people accused the ASL vloggers of not being accessible to non-ASL users. I am reposting this as I feel some hearing and oral deaf people don’t fully understand the issues. Some of the ASL users have never achieved full linguistic competency in written English because they weren’t exposed to a bona fide, totally accessible language during their critical period of language development. Most of them had oral upbringing and by the time it was realized that they couldn’t understand spoken English, the window of their critical language development had already passed.
These children were then taught to use coded English sign language (SEE, SEE II, Total Communication, Simultaneous Communication), all artificial languages which hampered their linguistic comprehension even more. By the time they were exposed to a real language, ASL, their chances to develop a strong base of linguistic competency were long gone and they struggled with written English as a second language. Some of them even struggled with ASL. Those demanding ASL users to translate their vlogs to English, then transcribe them in closed captioning or subtitling present an unfair and undue hardship.
For the people using spoken English, they only need to transcribe into written English. No translation is involved. English is their strongest asset. It’s not same for the majority of ASL vloggers. To be asked to do double duty using a language they aren’t strong in is very unfair, considering that the written blogs are not fully accessible to them. MZ
Wait! Blogs Aren’t Fully Accessible, Either
Watching the fray about the captioning of ASL vlogs, I can understand where Carl Schroeder is coming from. Yes, captioning would benefit Deaf Blind Community, Deaf people, including foreign Deaf, who don’t understand ASL, and hearing people. Personally I don’t think it’s fair to accuse vloggers of not being inclusive due to their refusal to subtitle for several reasons.
The ASL vloggers are being asked to do two jobs, not just captioning, but also translating from one language to another language, which involves intensive work than just transcribing alone. It gets more complicated if English is their second language. Writing English may not come easy for some ASL vloggers and they become self-conscious, having been the recipient of harsh criticism in the past. Preoccupation with the translation from ASL to English can stifle their creativity in expressing themselves. Being asked to translate and transcribe may constitute undue hardship for ASL vloggers.
Yet, on the other hand, I see nobody accusing the bloggers of being exclusive. Because many Deaf people are more comfortable in their first language, they prefer ASL than written English. As a second language, written English may not be fully accessible for all ASL readers. This preference for ASL is especially noted at DeafRead where vlogs consistently receive more hits than blogs. So why aren’t the bloggers inclusive by providing ASL versions?
By the way, I’ve been approached by many Deaf people about making my blogs accessible to other Deaf people, especially the grassroot Deaf people. I nodded affirmatively. Unfortunately it is too difficult with my health limitations, much to my deep regret. Ironically, if I could, I rather do vlogging than blogging as ASL comes very naturally for me nowadays, being more expressive and rich than written English. I did ask for volunteers, but didn’t get any. I am still amenable to work with a volunteer.
For the some people accusing ASL vloggers for being exclusive when their own blogs aren’t inclusive, it may be called as hypocrisy.
We need to come up with workable solutions.. without judging others
Mishka Zena » Blog Archive » Wait!. Blogs Aren’t Fully Accessible, Either!
P.S. I am being repetitive with the commentary published this morning because I feel some statements need to be repeated… to ensure that the writers of the blogs really comprehend the issues. To make a mandatory requirement that all vlogs be totally accessible while waiving the same expectations with the blogs defeat the purpose of true diversity.
P.P.S I forgot to add one thing. I did an ASL vlog and tried to translate it. The translation was extremely time-consuming as it was incredibly difficult to transmit the same message fully in written English without losing some during the translation. ASL is so rich and trying to convey that richness of ASL into written English doesn’t do the ASL the justice. After a while, I realized I just cannot do the job. Translating an ASL vlog into written English alone requires about five or six times the work of writing a blog. And we are not even discussing the captioning. MZ
Commentary: This is a post created last Feb when people accused the ASL vloggers of not being accessible to non-ASL users. I am reposting this as I feel some hearing and oral deaf people don’t fully understand the issues. Some of the ASL users have never achieved full linguistic competency in written English because they weren’t exposed to a bona fide, totally accessible language during their critical period of language development. Most of them had oral upbringing and by the time it was realized that they couldn’t understand spoken English, the window of their critical language development had already passed.
These children were then taught to use coded English sign language (SEE, SEE II, Total Communication, Simultaneous Communication), all artificial languages which hampered their linguistic comprehension even more. By the time they were exposed to a real language, ASL, their chances to develop a strong base of linguistic competency were long gone and they struggled with written English as a second language. Some of them even struggled with ASL. Those demanding ASL users to translate their vlogs to English, then transcribe them in closed captioning or subtitling present an unfair and undue hardship.
For the people using spoken English, they only need to transcribe into written English. No translation is involved. English is their strongest asset. It’s not same for the majority of ASL vloggers. To be asked to do double duty using a language they aren’t strong in is very unfair, considering that the written blogs are not fully accessible to them. MZ
Wait! Blogs Aren’t Fully Accessible, Either
Watching the fray about the captioning of ASL vlogs, I can understand where Carl Schroeder is coming from. Yes, captioning would benefit Deaf Blind Community, Deaf people, including foreign Deaf, who don’t understand ASL, and hearing people. Personally I don’t think it’s fair to accuse vloggers of not being inclusive due to their refusal to subtitle for several reasons.
The ASL vloggers are being asked to do two jobs, not just captioning, but also translating from one language to another language, which involves intensive work than just transcribing alone. It gets more complicated if English is their second language. Writing English may not come easy for some ASL vloggers and they become self-conscious, having been the recipient of harsh criticism in the past. Preoccupation with the translation from ASL to English can stifle their creativity in expressing themselves. Being asked to translate and transcribe may constitute undue hardship for ASL vloggers.
Yet, on the other hand, I see nobody accusing the bloggers of being exclusive. Because many Deaf people are more comfortable in their first language, they prefer ASL than written English. As a second language, written English may not be fully accessible for all ASL readers. This preference for ASL is especially noted at DeafRead where vlogs consistently receive more hits than blogs. So why aren’t the bloggers inclusive by providing ASL versions?
By the way, I’ve been approached by many Deaf people about making my blogs accessible to other Deaf people, especially the grassroot Deaf people. I nodded affirmatively. Unfortunately it is too difficult with my health limitations, much to my deep regret. Ironically, if I could, I rather do vlogging than blogging as ASL comes very naturally for me nowadays, being more expressive and rich than written English. I did ask for volunteers, but didn’t get any. I am still amenable to work with a volunteer.
For the some people accusing ASL vloggers for being exclusive when their own blogs aren’t inclusive, it may be called as hypocrisy.
We need to come up with workable solutions.. without judging others
Mishka Zena » Blog Archive » Wait!. Blogs Aren’t Fully Accessible, Either!
P.S. I am being repetitive with the commentary published this morning because I feel some statements need to be repeated… to ensure that the writers of the blogs really comprehend the issues. To make a mandatory requirement that all vlogs be totally accessible while waiving the same expectations with the blogs defeat the purpose of true diversity.
P.P.S I forgot to add one thing. I did an ASL vlog and tried to translate it. The translation was extremely time-consuming as it was incredibly difficult to transmit the same message fully in written English without losing some during the translation. ASL is so rich and trying to convey that richness of ASL into written English doesn’t do the ASL the justice. After a while, I realized I just cannot do the job. Translating an ASL vlog into written English alone requires about five or six times the work of writing a blog. And we are not even discussing the captioning. MZ
June 18th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
“To make a mandatory requirement that the vlogs be totally accessible while waiving the same expectations with the blogs defeat the purpose of diversity.”
Mishka,
This last comment in your post script says it all! Thanks for reposting as I didn’t see this the first time around.
Gracias!
June 18th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
I too wrote about vlog captioning more than a year ago (Jan 26, 2007). I’m all about accessibility however because of the work it takes to 1) translate and 2) incorporate the subtitles, some vloggers can claim “undue burden”. My current method of ensuring accessibility to all, by providing English transcription, is already hard enough as it is.
June 18th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Handwaves! I agree with you and when I checked my archives, this topic has been discussed for at least a year and a half now, with us raising the same points you did over and over and over again. I’m feeling like some people either really don’t understand or are not willing to understand. The post I wrote on the topic can be found by clicking on my name in this comment - it’ll take the reader directly to the post I wrote in January 2007. It’s a short one and I could’ve written more, but you did a great job! Your last sentence is perfect. Thanks again, Mishka Zena!
June 18th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
I would rather do vlogging than blogging, but I am not really technically savvy with HMTL and other software stuff.
If I vlog right now. I would do four version of my vlog postings every time - Regular in ASL, Feature for Deaf-Blind with Special “dim” edition with small sign spaces in black background and English transcript. *sigh*
Many of us do not recall how the English language usage kinda being an oppressive language (dominant language of our own society). Why the deaf vloggers have to double-burden themselves either with the English transcript or vlog captionings.
Look at the hearing vloggers and bloggers! They simply use their own dominant language usage, not complicate themselves with any kind of additional burden.
Deaf vloggers must make their own choices, not being pressured in any way by anyone.
I do have a real sympathy for Jamie Berke and others about not able to comphrend some ASL vloggers/signings. I hope that those individuals could find some way to understand what the ASL vloggers said.
Too many deaf people have been victimized and oppressed by the dominant society at large.
Why should other deaf individuals do the same things to deaf vloggers?
I am often steamed about the FX channel for not captioning the DVD (cut/unseen/others) scenes of their movies during the commerical breaks. That is totally unfair for me and other deaf people not able to see or understand what the hosts of the FX feature films are saying.
Not all the DVD’s bonus features come with captions as compared to many foreign films on DVD’s bonus features are captioned/subtitled.
If I vlog. I would be not likely to translate my vloggings 100 percent and just give the summary what I sign in ASL.
Robert L. Mason (RLM)
June 18th, 2008 at 12:56 pm
I second Jeffrey’s (the first one) comment! Thank you, MZ.
June 18th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
As a learner, I can say that having some captioned/transcripted and some not is a great help to me. The transcripted or captioned ones help me with comprehension, and the ones that aren’t help motivate me to keep going and shoot for something. For me, it’s like learning any foreign language; you need some beginner, intermediate, and advanced arenas to promote growth and improvement.
However, I’m an outsider. It’s not an access issue for me sinc eI’m hearing, and as a result I think I can afford to see it as just another instance of foreign language learning. There’s a whole other dimension to it for d/Deaf people. It always reminds me of the saying about the ham and egg breakfast: the chicken is involved, but the pig is committed. I’m just a chicken.
June 18th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
Poor Wilbur.
Some Pig!
Radiant!
Terrific!
Radiant!
Humble!
Breakfast?
Oh Poo!
June 18th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Way to go, Mishka!
June 18th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
Mishka, terrific to see you back!
I echo Jeffrey in his first comment.
(Food, again, Jeff??? Am I cursed to get hungry on any blogs you’ve been on? LOL I’m gonna cook pork tonight.)
I, too, tried ASL vlogging and translations in transcripts. WHEW. You described the exact experience I went through in your PS.S.
Well said!!
Shelley
June 18th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
MZ, thanks for articulating my sentiments!
When I do a vlog, I need to assume that all my viewers understand/are fluent in ASL. If not, click “x”, please. I refuse to let my creativity and my motivation be stifled. Thank you.
June 18th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
I second that, too, MZ! Good to see your familiar blog back!
Too, I had that experience trying to translate an ASL vlog into English. It’s so time-consuming that I gave up–trying to capture the richness with a decent approximation in English requires thinking and stopping the video frequently while translating.
Would it work better to write in English and then do ASL? That way one could be fully expressive in both languages without trying to tie them together word for word.
June 18th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Dianrez,
I tried that too, but I finally had to put down the English text as it was too distracting when I am trying to translate into ASL… too easy to slip back into the English order.
I find it best to do ASL vlog first, then type a transcript, but it cannot be an exact word for word translation as too much is lost. So I ended up typing an approximate (or loose) translation. So, ASL idioms for example, don’t get translated fully.
Shelley
June 18th, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Suppose I made an ASL handshape poem, based on ONE or two handshapes… or even a number poem (1 to 5, for example) You can view these types of poems in one of Clayton Valli’s poetry videotapes/DVD.
I cannot even begin to try to translate those poems, as too much is lost, they are not intended for translation. And I’ve known interpreters to refuse to try to translate out of respect for the linguistic and poetic differences.
Shel
June 18th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
Readers, thanks. I am still taking an extended break, but feel this is a very important issue, so I interrupt my break to try to educate the oral deaf and hearing readers the problems ASL users face.
Shelley, oh my gosh, They will never understand the point of these ASL stories and poems as too much information will be lost during the translations. These cannot be translated. It is an impossibility.
It’s like trying to explain an oil painting to the blind people who have never seen colors before. They will not get it. No amount of explanation can do the justice to the oil painting.
June 18th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Exactly, Mishka.
June 18th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
Yet that is what the DV would expect if an ASL poem was submitted at DV. That ASL poem would NEVER make it past the moderators or Rachel, and that is a serious loss for them, and parents who don’t go to Deafread for example.
Do go to Kokonut Pundit and view my debate with Mike if you haven’t already done so. He simply doesn’t get it.
Shelley
June 18th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Actually, Shelley, I think Mike does get it. He doesn’t care as he apparently feels the needs of the oral deaf and hearing people more important than the needs of ASL users. Again this is my personal interpretation based on my observations on his posts and comments the last two years.
Incidentally he had already read this post the first time. This is not new to him, not at all, yet he is still pressing on for cc/subtitling of ASL vloggers while being quiet about blogs not being accessible to ASL users.
June 18th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
That’s even worse, Mishka. If one doesn’t get it, that person could be forgiven for his ignorance, but if he does get it. whoa. That’s intentional oppression of ASL for the sake of
English. He stated that he preferred to do oral vlogs. This was after I challenged him to do an ASL vlog. Sigh… It’s ok for him to prefer to do oral vlogs, but its not ok for asl vloggers to prefer to not do English translations, which would be blogs in themselves.
Shelley
June 18th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
Mishka Zena,
I know of many deaf people with poor English skills that increased their English proficiency just by being on the internet reading a whole lot of ENGLISH!! It helps them tremendously. There are some low functioning deaf that I would never have dreamed to be good in English.
Also many deaf people are capable of understanding captionings on TV and DVD, what’s the difference? Even my dad who has bad English comprehension, captioning helps him a great deal regardless.
Typing out transcripts is a lot easier than making a vlog.
How do you really know that he doesn’t care?
June 18th, 2008 at 5:29 pm
C’est ça, smile, Elizabeth! DeafRead embraces the holy word, Diversity, so those who tolerate diversity find home in DeafRead. I cannot feel at home in any blog or forum that denies my rights.
Jean Boutcher
Who feels at home in Elizabeth’s DR blog.
June 18th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Candy,
I’ll address one part of your comment.
I’d agree that typing out transcripts is a lot easier than making a vlog, but for those who are not confident in their English, making vlogs are a lot easier than typing out transcripts.
(For me, the reason it’s easier to type out blogs is technological. I have trouble with my camcorder and editing movies… ARGH. This is the only reason I haven’t vlogged since last year.)
It boils down to which language one feels most comfortable in. I’m comfortable in both languages, but the points Mishka makes about the difficulties of translation are valid.
Shelley
June 18th, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Mishka, it’s a bit of a non sequitur (not to mention being a bit disingenuous) in the attempt to say that written blogs ought to have ASL video interpretations just to make it “fair.” If that’s the case then Closed Captioning on television shows and such ought to be replaced with an ASL interpreter in the corner of the tv screen. If it’s English is so bad to read then make sure you go after Gallaudet University for not including an ASL version for every article written whether it’s news, sports, administration update and so on. If you really want to see hypocrisy go after Gallaudet University or NTID for not including ASL versions in all of their writings over the internet. Or what about the countless Deaf websites that do not have ASL video versions next to their written English sections?
Secondly, you are making a statement (as well as helping perpetuate the 4th grade reading literacy myth/fact) about the literacy levels that Deaf people have by sayinig they are unable to read yet they have no problem taking the time to comment in many blogs. Maybe you ought ought to go after Ricky Taylor’s blogs for not including an ASL vlog version alongside each and every blog entry? But I don’t see Deaf people reaching for their pitchforks going after him for not adding an ASL version to his blog entries. Heck, go after DeafRead for no having an ASL version for their guidelines. You wanna talk about hypocrisy, Mishka? After all I wonder how many Deaf people who already read DR’s guidelines didn’t understand them at all because it was all in English? Who knows, maybe they violated DR’s guideline umpteen times it’d make your head spin? You wanna talk about hypocrisy, diversity and accessiblity all in one fell swoop now, Mishka?
English is the one single common language that is accessible to the majority population, deaf or otherwise, who are literate. ASL is not accessible to the majority of the population in the United States. The majority of Deaf people are literate enough to read simple sentences to more complex ones such as yours, Mishka. I guess you better starting adding an ASL version of your blog entry just for the sake of “fairiness.” After all, you blogs are certainly not “accessible to ASL users.”
And for the record, I have not read or accessed this post until today. Oh, I do get it. It just perhaps you guys don’t get it and the level of hypocrisy y’all are displaying?
June 18th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Jean,
Re: your comment #20
Amen to that!!
Shelley
June 18th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Say, Candy, why don’t you vlog since you are proficient in ASL? While you are at it, be sure to translate and caption it, too.
I find it very interesting that you come from a DoD and you even admit that your Dad has limited English skills, yet you don’t vlog in ASL. TV captions are drastically different from reading a lengthy blog with its nuances in English, its idioms and symbolisms. Even I, as a proficient English writer, can see the differences. Is it any coincidence that the ASL vlogs consistently receive a lot of hits compared to written blogs? Nope, no coincidence at all
By the way, why aren’t you being sensitive to the linguistic concerns of ASL users, seeing that you come from the same background? I find that very odd. Even I who grew up exclusively oral and didn’t learn sign language until I went to college, can understand what some ASL users face. Having seen their written works, I will never force them to write in a language they don’t feel comfortable with.
If I could, I would gladly vlog in ASL. Unfortunately I am unable to, much to my deepest regret.
Jean, your words brighten my day. I am glad many feel comfortable with my blogs. I wish I could vlog for those who are unable to enjoy my blogs, though. It bothers me : /
June 18th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
Actually, Mike, you did read the post the first time it was published at DR last Feb.
“# 2 mcconnell Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Are you saying that many are in fact illiterate or that they have limited English skills to navigate a written blog? Rehashing the old “4th grade” reading skill (which, btw, was a study about 17 and 18 year old deaf high school students and not the general deaf adult population) thing again. What are the suggestions? I understand about visual limitations but what about those who have little or no grasp of the English language? For the lack of a better word here, “dumb down” our writings?
What?
The topic was about ASL vlogs and about the Deaf community’s tendency to prefer them over written blogs. And that issue extended to those Deaf signing community who happens to have restricted vision that a signing ASL vlog may not be enough to understand completely what’s going on.
As for the hypocrisy bit, are you saying people like Patty, who is DB, as being a hypocrite for suggesting that ASL vlogs have at least subtitles to them?
Just wondering here while I muse.”
You also made additional comments: #5, #8, and #10. http://blog.deafread.com/mishkazena/2008/02/14/wait-blogs-arent-accessible-either/
So you already knew the problems of some ASL users. They are not being hypocrites. Unlike you, I recognize their concerns very legitimate as I’ve seen their written works. I have to think in ASL before I can understand some of their works. So I can understand their reluctance to express themselves in a language they are weak. Having been criticized many times for being weak in written English in the past, they are very sensitive about their poor English. They express themselves articulately in ASL, but not in written English. This is a very easy concept to understand.
You prefer to speak in spoken English. You also have a strong competency in English. They prefer to speak in ASL. Unfortunately there is no written mode of ASL. English and ASL are NOT the same thing, which you already know.
About Deaf bloggers not making themselves accessible, there is no need for them as there is no mandatory rule about the vloggers being forced to caption/subtitle their vlogs to non ASL users. It is an option for all bloggers and vloggers.
However, if vloggers are being mandated to be accessible to everybody, then it makes sense for all bloggers be mandated to provide ASL translations, too. If not, this double standards show true hypocricy about being diverse and accessible.
For your information, not all ASL vloggers went and/or graduated from college. HTH
June 18th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
Mishka Zena,
Like you, I’m unable to.
It’s sad that deaf people are using their excuse of having poor English in this arena. They are limiting their potential. Everyone has the potential to learn English. One way is to read.
I am being sensitive. I care. I want every deaf people to have excellent understanding of English and the way to do it is to overcome it, by not limiting themselves to “ASL only” exposure.
I have seen first hand how several deaf people’s English improved just by being on the internet, with all that reading and typing. That’s proof enough alone, that it will help them in the long run. This one person I have in mind never graduated from college and wasn’t even eligible to attend Gallaudet or NTID. I was impressed with what I saw.
Why hold deaf people down and limit their potential? They’re capable.
June 18th, 2008 at 7:04 pm
I respectfully disagree with you. No, from what I’m seeing, in my honest opinion, you are not being sensitive to the ASL users. They are stating that they are more comfortable using their ASL. They are happy using ASL. They are not even complaining about the written blogs which are inaccessible to some of the ASL users. They watch the other ASL vlogs, hence the higher the hits of these ASL vlogs compared to blogs.
However, it is you and your friends who are complaining. You all are making unrealistic demands that they provide written English translations. Even you are claiming these ASL users are not living up to their potential by not using written English. Excuse me? Who are you to dictate to them? Even though you do not acknowledge it, ASL is very important to them. To me, I totally agree that ASL is as important as written English.
If you expect the ASL vloggers provide written English, then you must make your blogs accessible to ASL users by providing ASL translations.
Fair is Fair. It goes both ways.
Since you and others refuse to provide ASL translations, then this mandate that all vlogs be captioned is not only double standards, but contrary to the true spirit of embracing diversity and accessibility. Who are truly being hypocrites?
June 18th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Elizabeth,
Agreed on your response to Candy. I couldn’t have said it better.
Shelley
June 18th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Candy
As a fellow DoD, you gotta be kidding. Who do you think you are talking to?? A bunch of illiterates? You are full of it, Candy. You have something against the deaf and ASL for a personal reason unknown to us.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
Candy,
English “potential” “limiting themselves to ASL only exposure”.
Hmmm. If you said that an immigrant from another country who moved to USA isn’t living up to their English potential, you would be eaten alive and accused of cultural and linguistic insensitivity. You’d be told to take cultural sensitivity training.
“limiting themselves to only ASL”. You’re disregarding the history of over hundred years of language starvation of deaf children through methods that doesn’t stimulate their cognitive and language development. This continues to this day. Children who are thusly deprived naturally gravitate towards the most accessible LANGUAGE that is visible. YOu are putting down ASL.
You’re surprised that “low functioning” deaf could develop good English. Could it be that those deaf are TRULY fluent in ASL, but because they practice ASL, which is seen as broken English, they are low functioning? When you are fully literate in ASL, then you have stronger ASL literacy and can pick up on another language.
You say “everyone has the potential to learn English.” I could say “everyone has the potential to learn (insert language other than English here), and should not be limiting themselves to “English-only” exposure.
Do you realize how condescending you sound when you said that??? BOY, did I sound condescending in the paragraph before this one!
You see English as THE language to use, and ASL is of secondary importance. I see English AND ASL as equally important.
I also say, let ASL vloggers decide whether to translate into English or not. If they’re comfortable with the language and have the time to translate then type in proper English, they can, but if they are not, let them be.
DV is creating a closed door policy when it comes to ASL vloggers who can READ English, but have trouble WRITING. If they ask bloggers to translate into ASL, BSL, whatever, then I think ASL vloggers would be willing to try as we all know that not everyone is fluent in ASL over in DV.
Respectfully,
Shelley
June 18th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
Candy….Candy…..Mike…..Mike…..
Oh, dear…..you both don’t get it at all. The Deaf can’t read captions and ASL at the same time because it’s so distracting, therefore they’d get lost somewhere in translation. Spoken English can be captioned with ease because it is the same language between Spoken English and Written English.
BUT ASL CANNOT BE TRANSLATED INTO CAPTIONS, PERIOD, REGARDLESS WHETHER WE MAY HAVE GOOD ENGLISH SKILLS OR/AND READING LEVEL. IT DOESN’T MAKE A DAMN DIFFERENCE. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK HEADS! TESTA SPESSA!
I would challenge you two to do ASL and try to turn it into captions. I TRIPLE DOG DARE YOU BOTH, ASSHATS!
Great blog, Mishka! Sorry for such a bad language due to this little Italian temper of mine.
Misha
June 18th, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Cy, actually Mishka is seemingly suggesting that there are a lot of Deaf people who have English problems (functionally illiterates?) and thus helping solidify the “4th grade level literacy skill” myth/fact that’s been floating around lately.
Mishka, the underlying and common langauge that we all have access to is the printed English language. Now, tell me, why hasn’t there been a collective hue and cry over Deaf bloggers not including ASL video versions of their blog entries? Deaf bloggers have doing this for years, even to today, who have ignored the needs of those who want/require/need an ASL video version.
As for Patty per your comment -
“As for the hypocrisy bit, are you saying people like Patty, who is DB, as being a hypocrite for suggesting that ASL vlogs have at least subtitles to them?”
That’s not the hypocrisy I’m talking about. (actually it’s a bit of a non sequitur what people are trying to by spinning it around saying that bloggers must be accomodating, too!). What I am referring to are about bloggers like you who try and spin it on how blogs need to include ASL video versions just to be “fair” and “accomodating” when you don’t even do it yourself! The same goes for other Deaf bloggers. Or other Deaf websites seeing that it is common that they don’t put up an ASL video version of their writings. Again, tell me, why hasn’t there been a collective hue and cry over Deaf bloggers for not including an ASL video version of their entries? No pitchforks? Flames? An angry mob?
That’s the hypocrisy I’m talking about.
I agree with Patty’s need on having both ASL and captions. But then again many Deaf vloggers do not. Not even a transcript save a very few who do (Barb Digi comes to mind). which is kind of funny and ironic considering. Again, Patty’s saving grace on her ability to understand what the video version is saying is, surprise, the fact that the English language in a text format helps her complete the information.
As for the posting comment, I meant this blog entry that I have not accessed until today nor had the chance to commented on until now.
Now, no one is forcing anybody to join Deaf Village. Either you subscribe ideally to DV’s #5 guideline or you don’t. If you want to reach out to a larger audience and get your message heard then certainly adding captions/subtitles or transcripts will help lots. This is the accessibility philosophy shared by those in DV based on the notion that the English language is the most widely used and accessible language format for Deaf, deaf, hh, and hearing people. There is no double standards. Double standards would be to allow ASL videos in DV with no texted format knowing that the majority of those who come do not know ASL and have no access to what’s being said.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:48 pm
Hey Hey Hey
drmzz has a lemondade stand up and he’s selling them for 5 cents a cup!
Think about it…
Summer is here and the heat is on!
June 18th, 2008 at 8:50 pm
Hey, Jeffrey!
ROFLMAO!!!!! I take it you saw his vlog about lemon. Most of us love it so much. I hope he’ll come up with a new fruit. LOL
Misha
June 18th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
I agree with you, Candy. We shouldn’t hold down deaf people and limit their potential. This does leave me puzzled though. People seem to dislike citations in blogs.
But aside from that, there are very few people who know ASL but are truly physically limited from doing vlogs. I myself can do vlogs, but I don’t do it often because I’m not comfortable with my appearance on camera. It’s not because I’m physically limited.
So I wonder if it’s truly because of physical limitations or just being uncomfortable for most people.
June 18th, 2008 at 8:53 pm
“The Deaf can’t read captions and ASL at the same time because it’s so distracting, therefore they’d get lost somewhere in translation.”
Are you attempting to make a very general and broad statement here? Sounds like the same legitimate concerns on what hearing people say about Closed Captioning on the television screen. So, you’re suggesting that captions ought to be removed then?
“I would challenge you two to do ASL and try to turn it into captions. I TRIPLE DOG DARE YOU BOTH, ASSHATS!” (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=asshat)- Nicely done. Let that emotion do the work for you, Mishka.
Um, that’s what I had to do at Gallaudet while as a student in the few courses I took where I did exactly that way, way back then. But that would be easy. I’d type it out in English and then express it into ASL. Already did that. Did it the other way around, too.
Now, remember, only the person doing the signing has the feel on which of the appropriate words would fit using the correct flavor of words into an English format. Other than that it would simply be paraphrasing on what the person was saying by “translating” what was said into English. So, what was said in ASL can be “translated” into many different ways. Think Thesaurus.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Contrary to the statement of being accessible and embracing diversity, the oral deaf and certain hearing people people are actually discriminating against a linguistic group by making demands yet they refuse to make their blogs accessible to the ASL users.
It doesn’t take a genius to figure what the real problems are: linguistic and cultural oppression.
Don’t play dumb. We are aware that you all know what the issues are. The more you talk, the more transparent your hypocrisy are.
If the ASL vloggers are mandated to make theirs captioned, then it is reasonable to expect that the bloggers do their fair share of making their accessible to ASL users in that particular aggregator
It is not an issue at DeafRead because there is no mandates for ASL vloggers to caption their work. Everything is on a voluntary base, unlike one particular aggregator.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:03 pm
LOL Jeffrey.
I’ve now come to associate food with you on any blogs other than your own.
Lemonade from Mike??? Only if the Health Inspector approves it LOL.
But, yeah… the heat sure is on…in more ways than one.
Shel
June 18th, 2008 at 9:05 pm
Misha,
In the name of linguistic (and diverse) accessibility…mind translating TESTA SPESSA into English OR ASL from Italian?
Thanks to you, that phrase is now stuck in my mind like a broken record. THANKS A LOT!
Shel
June 18th, 2008 at 9:09 pm
Hehehehe, Shel…..
Testa Spessa is thick head.
Misha
June 18th, 2008 at 9:13 pm
very well said, MZ, my dear friend…and i wonder if Mike & others like him who opposed ASL requested Hearing YouTube vlogs for CC?????? i think NOT!!!!!!! They just keep pointing fingers at ASL users…we Love u, MZ thanks!!!!
June 18th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
Ah, thanks, Misha!
Now I can insult people in three languages… I’m getting truly diverse. LOL
Shel
June 18th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
ROFL, Shel…..now you know three languages. Hahaha, you go girl.
I can give you another one in French. It’s tête épaisse. Oui, mon cherie? 
Misha
June 18th, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Oui. Got it. LOL. Now I’ll know when I’m getting insulted in French too.
Shel
June 18th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Mike, please do read carefully. Misha made that comment, not me.
Not all Deaf people have the same linguistic capabilities you and I have.
From where I stand, that is how I see it. It all boils down to cultural and linguistic oppression of a certain group. I see the superiority in certain commenters as well as subtle put-downs, etc, including denials that many ASL users who vlog don’t have good written English skills. They refuse to listen to others with open and nonjudgmental minds. They act if only their opinions count, dismissing all the other comments as invalid.
However, even though I am not the typical ASL user, I do respect their cultural and linguistic values. This is where we differ sharply.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
“It is not an issue at DeafRead because there is no mandates for ASL vloggers to caption their work. Everything is on a voluntary base, unlike one particular aggregator.”
Only because DR caters to mostly to a Deaf audience. So, it’s no surprise there is no need for captioning/subtitling or transcripts…other than for Deaf-Blind.
“It doesn’t take a genius to figure what the real problems are: linguistic and cultural oppression.”
Say that again to Gallaudet, NTID, Deaf bloggers, Deaf websites who don’t put up an equivalent ASL video version for each blog entry or article written in English. Until *YOU* address that hypocrisy then “perhaps” you’ll see where I’m getting at. I certainly do not see wall to wall ASL video versions in every nook and cranny that was written in English. Is this an attempt on using some sort of crutch in all this? Just asking because I certainly don’t see people carrying pitchforks and flames going after traitorous Deaf bloggers who won’t accomodate their blog entry with an ASL video version. Mind telling me why this hasn’t been the case?
No, vloggers are not “mandated” to make captions if they want to join DV. Transcript is another option as a requirement.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:41 pm
DeafRead has a good number of c.i. and hearing aids blogs.
Not all ASL vloggers went or graduate from colleges. Even those who did graduate, not all have the same linguistic competencies as we do. I know some who have weak English skills.
So your arguments are moot.
Again it boils down to cultural and linguistic oppression of a minority. That’s how I see it. The more you argue, the more convinced I get. And you know something… pretty much everybody else, including the outsiders, agrees with this sentiment except a small minority who exhibit audism.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
*hiccup*
Damn,.. I think that lemonade was spiked.
*hiccup*
June 18th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
“Not all Deaf people have the same linguistic capabilities you and I have.”
I am acutely aware of that. That is not lost on me.
Now, if DV or some other new non-profit organization had the resources, the money and man power to help provide captions or transcripts for Deaf vloggers then it’d be wonderful for everybody around. Unfortunately that hasn’t happened and so the onus and responsibility falls on the vlogger should he/she be willing to provide that access. Some are willing to do it, happily so, because they want to reach out to a larger audience. Others cannot or won’t due to various reasons.
Again, no one is being forced to join DV. Just as no one is being forced to join DR.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
Again it is not about people wanting to join an aggregator or not.
It is about double standards and closing doors to a culturally and linguistic minority. Until they are able to have both the vlogs and blogs accessible to everybody, hearing, cued speech users, ASL users, deaf oral, there shouldn’t be a mandate.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
“DeafRead has a good number of c.i. blogs. So your argument is moot.”
No. I stand correct in my assessment. The majority audience that DR caters to are mostly Deaf. There are currently 551 active blogs and 226 “inactive” blogs. Count how many blogs are C.I. related. Now, again, anyone can see by looking at the list and clicking on the names that most of those blogs are run by Deaf bloggers; hence, mostly a Deaf audience as I have said before. I didn’t “all” but “mostly” which is correct in this assessment. And how interesting many screamed like a banshee at the time when a few CI bloggers came on board on DR which pretty much tells who that audience is.
http://www.deafread.com/bloggers/
June 18th, 2008 at 9:54 pm
Look at the current publishing of blogs the last few weeks.
The number of the C.I. blogs and hearing aid blogs have been increasing over the period of time. The majority of these people don’t know sign language.
They are still welcome. DeafRead is almost two years old and no mandates have been made to force blogs or vlogs to be accessible to everybody. It is at the discretion of the bloggger and vloggers to decide how they want to express themselves.
The way I see, this certain mandate penalizes ASL vloggers but not the bloggers. So this mandate isn’t accessible at all.
June 18th, 2008 at 9:59 pm
“It is about double standards and closing doors to a culturally and linguistic minority.”
Once again, please address that “double standards” to Gallaudet and NTID websites, Deaf blogs, and Deaf websites where they have not addressed to the “linguistic minority” by providing an equivalent ASL video version to their online English text format. You haven’t answered my question why they are allowed a pass in this witch hunt?
Again, the single most accessible language format across the board continues to be the English language else we’d see wall to wall ASL video versions up the wazoo on Gallaudet’s website for example as well as other Deaf blogs and such. If Deaf bloggers are so concerned, like you are, then why many of them haven’t included an ASL version, too? If you want double standards I just showed you who to go after.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:03 pm
“Look at the current publishing of blogs the last few weeks.
The number of the C.I. blogs and hearing aid blogs have been increasing over the period of time. The majority of these people don’t know sign language.”
Again, and I stand correct. DR caters mostly to a Deaf audience despite their attempt at “diversity” given the fact we see mostly Deaf blogs and, of course, Deaf vlogs! Otherwise we’d see a 33% Deaf audience, 33% deaf audience, 33% hearing audience. Not so. The majority falls on the Deaf side than not.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
Gallaudet and NTID has no merit in this issue.
I am talking about an aggregator actively discriminating against a group.
It’s all about the refusal of an aggregator to acknowledge that a minority is weak in English and knowing that a mandate will weed out this group. You conveniently ignore the fact that DeafRead doesn’t have a mandate, unlike this particular aggregator. No mandate, no problem. ASL vloggers and Deaf/hearing/oraldeaf bloggers are not mandated to be 100% accessible
Unlike an aggregator requiring vlogs to be accessible 100% while not requiring the bloggers to be accessible? Double Standards at the expense of a culturally Deaf linguistic minority.
Don’t play dumb.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
This is totally off-topic, but several months ago I received an email from you regarding ‘moms/parents’ of deaf/HOH kids. I replied back to you 2-3 times (sorry, I can’t remember the exact number) but never got a return reply. I guess it’s been weighing on my mind a bit, because I feel you didn’t bother responding because we’re largely an oral family. It’s a tough world to fit into when you don’t get a reply to an email that sent unrequested, that you take the time to respond to, and then you’re ‘rejected’.
Just my quick thoughts
Melissa (mom to four- deaf/HOH kids)
June 18th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
Look at this particular aggregator. How many CI blogs does it have? How many ASL blogs/vlogs does it have?
What diversity? lol
Not only DeafRead has diversity, it continues to become more diverse.
June 18th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
I need to jump in this controversy now…
Hey, El Jefe, thank you for spiked lemonade. Boy, they are delicious! Smackin’ good!
Mike, as you mentioned recently,
“Now, if DV or some other new non-profit organization had the resources, the money and man power to help provide captions or transcripts for Deaf vloggers then it’d be wonderful for everybody around. Unfortunately that hasn’t happened…”
I am sorry that I had to disagree with you that it DID happen. I recall that there is one person who took an extra mile to set up a blog for ‘transcription services’ for vlogs.
Please see the link: VLOG Transcripts Project
This experimental blog was created by Ben Vess, also known as Der Sankt.
There were a few vloggers who graciously submitted their vlogs to Ben, and he did help with the transcription, including Jay Krieger’s, Ridor’s, and Shawn Elfrink’s.
I know from one reliable source that one blogger did ask Ben if he is willing to do the ASL translation for a blog but somehow Ben did not follow up or responded to this email.
Then, my question is… we all were in this together last February 2007, which was 16 months ago.
Now, Mike, please retract what you said that it hasn’t happened, because it was not true.
The problem is that we (all of us) haven’t nurtured the potential which Ben provided as a possible valuable resource to make *some* vlogs and blogs accessible for all.
Think about it.
Amy Cohen Efron
June 18th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
Melissa, you will need to e mail me again. Because I checked my records which showed no e-mails from you. I don’t know what the problem is. Let me give you the e-mail address MishkaZena@aol.com.
In case you may not know, even though I use sign language, I am still oral and speak to people verbally. I am sorry you thought perhaps I have something against oral deaf and hoh people. I don’t, not at all
June 18th, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Cy, I have nothing against my people. Even my deaf friends respects me for the unique individual that I am with my own views. It’s my own, mine and no one elses.
Shel, why limit to just our beautiful ASL only? Why not be profiecient in both ASL and English?
DP, I think it’s probably both, to each its own.
*Shrugs*
Nobody’s Listening…
June 18th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
Candy, perhaps you are not aware that it is extremely difficult for a person to master a language if the person doesn’t have any solid language base during the critical period of language acquisition.
If there was no exposure to a real language during early childhood, a deaf person can keep trying to improve English but can struggle with English proficiency for the rest of life. The window of opportunity to learn a language had closed and expired.
Read the paragraphs about neural plasticity and also Deaf children. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_acquisition
June 18th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
That’s it, Mishka, I’m aware of all that. Their wanting captions or subtitle or transcripts because of their English, is just pure cop out. I know many would be receptive to it.
Struggling with English does not stop many of them from enjoying captions or subtitles or reading newspapers and such. My dad reads the paper, go figure. He manages to figure things out. Deaf people are capable if they put their minds to it.
June 18th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
For Deaf Oralists or hearing vloggers - If they wish to use their voice … Highly recommend them to use the subtitles. I dunno …. but in my opinion this is an ASL Deaf world here in this Deafread. It is our own time. There are four or five Deaf ASL-ers (even one of them is a former Deaf oralist) who founded this website and they had worked hard for us. This has to be a comfortable zone for everyone here. This is our Deaf time.
Like MZ quoted —
“Some of the ASL users have never achieved full linguistic competency in written English because they weren’t exposed to a bona fide, totally accessible language during their critical period of language development. Most of them had oral upbringing and by the time it was realized that they couldn’t understand spoken English, the window of their critical language development had already passed…….
Yes I am one of them …..
As for me as a Deaf Oralist, I now relay on using ASL to express freely. I had missed out a lot in written or spoken English for many years. I think my written english is not that bad. Of course I am still learning everyday! I would love to do subtitles but it is impossible for me to translate. I really think that Deaf Oralists who don’t sign (or thinks they don’t need to learn ASL) are encouraged to use the subtitles of their vlog. This DR and DV are supposed to be the most comfortable zone for this Deaf community — with ASL that comes first here. This is our Deaf time. Of course we will do our best to make accommodate for the non signers (Oral Deaf or CI-ers) We have dealt with the hearing world everyday .. work, family, and etc. This DeafRead is our family. ASL must be existed .. it is up to the Deaf to use subtitles or not ….. however Deaf Oralists or even hearing vloggers are strongly encouraged to use the subtitle for their vlog for the Deaf Community of the DR and DV. Thanks Diane
June 18th, 2008 at 11:52 pm
Well, please do tell me why the ASL vlogs are immensely popular compared to blogs, if there is no problem with Deaf ASL users reading printed English?
Reading captions on TV are very different from reading articles.
Secondly, writing is harder than reading.
What they are asking are two things.. translation of ASL to English which is very difficult, even for me and others who are already proficient in both ASL and written English, let alone ASL users who are not proficient in written English. Then we need to consider the captioning task. This is very different from a person transcribing spoken English to written English with no translation needed. This mandate is demanding an unrealistic amount of work and energy from ASL bloggers, even worse if they are not good expressing themselves in written English, which oral deaf/hearing people don’t have the same struggles.
I see that you refuse to understand. OK. There is nothing I can do if you are not willing to remove your blinders and see what the ASL vloggers are saying. Unlike you, I am not Deaf to their concerns, even though I didn’t grow up with them, but you did. That’s what I find so sad.. that you, a DoD, would be so biased and judgmental about ASL users.
We will have to agree to disagree in this area. I am hopeful other readers will keep their mind open, let themselves be educated and see the light. Have a nice night, Candy.
June 19th, 2008 at 12:04 am
One more thing …… As a Deaf Oralist, my learning everyday life had been deprived for many years in the hearing world until I learned ASL at Gallaudet. I had realized I’ve missed out ALOT. That’s why I don’t use subtitle because Deaf Oralist or CI who don’t signsoften use the blogs- not vlogs. They are encouraged to learn sign here … using the vlogs to pay respect us Deaf signers in the DR. I hate seeing many CI-ers often use the blogs to discuss their experience of getting a new CI or Hearing Aids, AVT and brag how much they can hear or even read and write very well in English or even speak well .. Then This is not for this DeafRead .. This is supposed to be a comfortable zone for the Deaf Community here. Deafhood is important but must show respect each others here. I’ll hush bedtime for me…. Diane PS Pardon my poor written English.
June 19th, 2008 at 12:12 am
Even I was an avid newspaper reader (everyday my dad brought two newspapers home from his work — one for me and one for him) and graduated from Gallaudet and Northeastern University .. I still use the vlogs to express freely. Writing is extremely hard for me to express freely. I’ll shut up now … Good Morning
June 19th, 2008 at 1:00 am
Catching up here… Thank you Mishka for pointing this out. Excellent post and reminder!
The most important thing for me is to FEEL SAFE with my vlogs in any way i create it. I do not feel safe anywhere on blogsphere these days. I certainly hope to find an aggregator where we FINALLY feel free WITHOUT any OPPRESSION especially with our own language.
Thanks again!
June 19th, 2008 at 2:06 am
Candy,
There is an excellent book I thought you might be
inerested in reading:
“Language Instinct”
by Steven Pinker
1994.
The authorative book — thoroughly researched from many well-reputated authors who are scholars — has been a bestseller for over a
decade.
If all teachers in schools for the deaf read
the said book, they would feel guilty for having
had lower expectations for deaf students and neglecting to teach English to them for years.
Deaf students ARE educable if schools get the
highly qualified teachers.
June 19th, 2008 at 6:29 am
I commend MZ for making a great article here and holding up her strong arguments against those so called oppressive Deaf Villagers whose ulterior motive is to divide the D/deaf people from all kinds of educational and social backgrounds.
Great Work!
June 19th, 2008 at 6:42 am
I am bypassing all the comments and just focusing on the posting. I am still in the process of learning ASL. It will take years until I am comfortable with my own viewing of vlogs. I appreciate the vloggers who put subtitles. It allows me to enjoy them without struggling to pick up a sign here and there.
All this brings back memories of sitting in a classroom without accommodations or even hearing aids trying to pick up a word here and there. It is not an experience I want to go through again.
All I do is bypass the vlogs without subtitles. I do not comment, I just bypass. I will not allow myself to be stressed again. As for all this debate, I have stayed out of it and will continue to. I keep learning ASL until I feel comfortable.
As for this deaf individual, how can I get there if no one helps me on the journey?
June 19th, 2008 at 7:58 am
Diane, your English is passable. I’ve seen worst from hearings. Even they have their own illiteracy problems.
June 19th, 2008 at 8:00 am
Mishkazena,
Why ASL is popular, is pretty obvioius, because it is easier for them. That’s all. But, if we all took the easy road in life, what would happen?
June 19th, 2008 at 8:21 am
Well.
The way I see it… it is some people’s call for captioning and other people’s call for non-captioning. As for me, I enjoy subtitled foreign movies and I do watch captioned shows on TV. I do understand the need for the captioning on ASL videos, especially for hearing viewers, but it is UP to the deaf vloggers to caption their videos or not, for their comfort level.
I understand the need for the “safe haven”… everyone needs it.
There is NO black and white areas… it all depends on the person’s comfort zone and willingness, whether the person wants to reach out to more people or to only select groups.
Sorry to sound lukewarm, but that is my take. If one aggragator has a lot of hearing viewers, then I’d caption my videos so that they could understand me, because I’d want them to hear what I think about. AS for me, I prefer blogging over vlogging, because writing allows me to think and edit… that is my “English” comfort. Out in real world, chatting with people, I use ASL, my “deaf (or Deaf for that matter, depending on other people’s perspective)” comfort.
June 19th, 2008 at 8:54 am
Joey,
You hit it on the head…”FEEL SAFE”. By the way, good to see you!
Diane, your English is not that bad, and I do get where you are coming from. It took courage for you to express yourself in a language that you do not feel comfortable with.
Candy, Diane just asked us to pardon her poor written English. THAT is the CRUX of the problem here. She is feeling the consequences of language oppression here.
The issue here is NOT whether we should limit ourselves to ASL or not. The issue is feeling SAFE and competent enough to use English as well as ASL, AND the long process of translation itself. If a person does not feel safe, what right do we have to push them out of that comfort zone, with their feeling that they would be indicted for their skills or lack thereof?
Like MZ said, Many ASL users who have not been flooded with language in EITHER language during the critical period of language acquisition grow up struggling with English. No matter how far they go, they continue to have to deal with feelings of inadequacy in English.
The word here “SAFE” really applies. I echo Diane’s assertion that we need a DEAF home. Remember safe harbour? We need that. Joey just said he doesn’t feel safe anywhere in the blogosphere.
What does that tell you, Candy? You, a DoD, obviously feel comfortable in both English and ASL, so you cannot relate to the frustrations and feelings of inadequacy of those who feel semilingual in either language. Please open your mind to this fact. AND this IS NOT a copout. Please respect the ASL vloggers’ need to be SAFE.
One last point: Mike McConnell says he knows ASL but refuses to reciprocate by translating his English text into ASL. This tells me that he does NOT feel comfortable or safe enough in ASL to do this task that Misha triple-dog-dared him to do. Elizabeth Boschini says she knows ASL, yet would NOT do this either. Does she feel comfortable in ASL enough to do the translation process? I don’t know.
Shelley
June 19th, 2008 at 10:38 am
Hi,
Sorry if I have missed this suggestion in one of the other comments. Maybe the transcripts should be done in ASL gloss instead of English. It would still be a ‘transcript’! (BG)
David
June 19th, 2008 at 11:02 am
You know, honestly — even if ASL vloggers are capable of transcripting everything they say, why the hell should they? Seriously — people are being very blithe here with laying a rather significant burden on people who just want to shoot the sh*t and eat their lunch. Transcripts are nice and I’m thankful to the vloggers who make them, but I don’t feel that I have the right to demand that level of work from people who just want to vlog.
And I don’t buy the whole “put your mind t it” argument, either, which is just another way of saying “you’re lazy.” I’m lazy when I blog, too — I just want to express myself. When do Deaf people get to just shoot the breeze without having to be constantly conscious of the fact that the whole world can’t speak their language? What other minority language users are burdened with the requirement to either translate every single thing they say or else fear being labelled as lazy?
Do any of the people who demand transcripts or captions from ASL vloggers also wander around telling people who blog in Irish or Basque to get with the program and provide translations because not everyone knows their weirdo, freaky language? No. If you hang around learner communities, yes — you’ll find people who are willing to do that. But even they don’t do it always, because sometimes they just want to hang out and talk about stuff.
It’s simply not fair to demand that people constantly be conscious of You, the Center of the Universe and bend over backwards all the time to include you. Like I said, I appreciate the transcripts where they exist, but it would be the height of ego for me to expect that 1) every ASL vlogger in the world keep me personally in mind with every thought in their head, and 2) they assume that despite being so pushy and demanding, I would have anything to contribute to the conversation that would make providing me with a transcript a worthwhile activity in the first place.
It just stuns me that people expect that a Deaf person can’t even vlog about, “Dude I finally saw Lord of the Rings last night, man that movie rocked!” without keeping You The Center of the Universe in mind.
And no, it’s not the same as Deaf people asking for accessibility. Being excluded from a couple blogs because of a minority language barrier is not the same as being systematicalyl excluded from all aspects of public life because of a fundamental communications barrier. If you think otherwise, I await with eager anticipation the day when you start trolling blogs written in Cornish and demand translations. Jeez.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:30 am
I think it’s one thing to encourage vloggers to do transcripts or captioning… but it is another to REQUIRE them to do so. That in a way, does dictate how the vlogger does his/her vlog, to be able to participate on an aggregator.
DeafRead does this a bit (since your topic has to be deaf related to be on the front page), but DeafRead’s dictation is not to the same extent as DeafVillage’s. And I think it’s quite disingenuous for people to deny that.
I also think if DeafVillage is sincere in being open to all v/bloggers, that they should be more receptive to people’s concerns about the captioning/transcript requirement.
Personally, what concerns me the most is the fact the last guideline basically voids the rest of the guidelines. The moderators can effectively, for any reason, deny a blog or a vlog’s admission to DeafVillage. That is far more discriminatory than DeafRead’s guidelines.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:36 am
Everyone,
Mike McConnell have to remmy that Ridor dislike doing the vlog. Ridor prefer blogging to vlogging. That’s what he mentioned in his vlog posting during the “UFG” protest.
Mike McConnell, please quit being a gnat on our DeafRead. Just leave our eyes in peace. Thanks.
Mishka just expressed her thoughts on the mandatory requirement of captioning vlogs on the DV which troubled her lately.
From my own personal perspective, the Deaf Village’s so-called rules are designated to minimize the presence of deaf blogs by tossing unnecessary burden on deaf vloggers to caption their vlog postings.
Am I correct, Mike and Rachel?
Robert L. Mason (RLM)
RLMDEAF blog
June 19th, 2008 at 11:47 am
David,
ASL gloss is fine if the Deaf person has taken an ASL linguistics course, but not everyone takes one. So while it’s a good suggestion, it isn’t always practical, and it doesn’t address the double standard of guideline #5 in DV, the Center of the World.
Janis and DeafPundit… well said!
Shel
June 19th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
No, it is because ASL is the language they feel competent in. You, of all people, know this very well.
Why would they be told to use a language they feel weak because some people are too arrogant and insensitive to their limitations with a language?
It reminds me of how hearing people force Deaf people to speak, never mind that their speech is unintelligible to hearing people because they must live in the hearing world. Never mind that the Deaf people cannot understand what Hearing people say. After all, their needs are not important. The hearing people’s needs are more important. Wow.. What happened to people being created equally as stated by our Constitution?
However, ADA recognizes that they have their rights and their needs must be accommodated. It is not always that they are given one interpreter. Sometimes they get two different kinds of interpreters to convey the full message of their ASL. In this tense, we can accuse some certain people of being willfully discriminating against a linguistical minority, seeing that spoken English was never fully accessible to them, affecting their ability to master the written English until much later when they finally found a language fully accessible. I am sure the ADA recognizes this policy as an linguistic oppression against Deaf and seeing the double standards of arbitrary rules at the expense of culturally Deaf people.
By the way, using your rationale, why don’t you and others fluent in ASL vlog .. so you can improve your ASL and live up to your potential? After all, ASL is a bona fide language. After all, some CI people, like Valerie, say they want to learn ASL. Why don’t you take the initative to educate your friends in your aggregator?
June 19th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
Mishka,
your last paragraph is basically similar to the comment that I left on Mike’s Kokonut Pundit blog.
I predict they won’t take you up on your challenge, unfortunately.
Shelley
June 19th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
There’s an article in today’s edition of the Washington Post.
Oh, the irony!
I think I will post the link for this blog entry in the comments section.
We fight for the FCC to require descriptions on all online content but when it comes to deaf to deaf, it’s not as important? And we get vehement responses from certain people saying that we need a safe haven, that we are idiots that do not understand the English language, and so on (of course I’m paraphrasing here)…
But this is a real delicious irony. I will bring this squabble to the Washington Post’s online community. This is freakin’ hilarious!
June 19th, 2008 at 12:27 pm
I still can’t believe the whole thing get out of hand because I just wish these people would understand that it is always a free of choice for all of us. Some people tend to forget that blogging and/or vlogging is actually a personal choice to do so. Therefore, it is their personal choice to run how the way they want to run on their own websites. It is up to them what kind of audience they are looking for. Some have their own preference to target a type of audience or wider, etc. Which then it leaves us with a choice to view or not.
Of course it is a choice that someone made by putting in “require” to provide captions or transcripts has gone too far, IMHO. I tried to share my reasons that they would have used a better term such as encouraging others but always remain optional for all. I can imagine that if I was “required” to provide subtitles on my videos, maybe it would change my point of view by saying, no way! Because it is common sense that nobody want to be forced to do things, simple as that.
I decided to subtitles my videos is because that was my personal choice so therefore I’d expect everyone to respect my choice as well as I respect everyone’s choice on how they want to do with theirs.
*sighs* Can’t we all just get along and to remember it is personal choice for everyone. Only one thing that bothers me is that one group of people taunted certain vloggers who provides subtitles or transcripts rather than respecting them then come back saying they are being upset due to lack of captioning on TV/online videos.
-SG
June 19th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Elizabeth,
I copied and pasted my comment, and Mike’s response to mine. Definitely smacks of language supremacy, doesn’t it? I still don’t think he gets it. It’s amazing the lack of respect he has for ASL.
Mike and Candy,
The issue IS NOT ILLITERACY, The issue is RECIPROCITY, DOUBLE STANDARDS AND MUTUAL RESPECT. You expect ASL vloggers to subtitle or transcribe their vlogs, and yet DV folks REFUSE to make their blogs accessible to ASL users. This has got to be a two-way street, or else ditch that guideline.
Curious Eyes stated in a comment to your other blog, Mike, that she or he(?) does not feel comfortable with ASL to translate. That is perfectly understandable. DITTO for ASL users who don’t feel comfortable with English. That is perfectly understandable too.
Mike, I could use your argument against you. I could say that you English-speakers are illiterate in ASL and should not let your lack of competency in ASL stop you from signing.
It’s two sides of a single coin. You simple prefer to look at ONE and refuse to turn the coin.
Shelley
Shelley | 06.19.08 - 10:05 am | #
——————————————————————————–
No, Shelley, we like to see all forms of visual communications (including PSE, SEE, LOVE, Rochester, manual alphabet, etc) seen in videos to include texted versions as well.
Again, the underlying and common language that we all have immediate access to is the printed English language.
Now, tell me, why hasn’t there been a collective hue and cry over Deaf bloggers for not including ASL video versions of their blog entries? Deaf bloggers have been doing this for years (e.g. Ridor) and ignored those who want/require/need an ASL video version. What about DeafRead? They failed doing that and yet no screaming bloody murder over that one? What about Gallaudet University’s website for not including ASL video versions with all of their texted versions? And NTID? Or other Deaf websites? Why not the outrage over theirs? It’s because everybody knows that English is the one common language that is immediately accessible to the largest group of people, including Deaf. So by eliminating the texted version requirement would not fit the philosophy of DV on providing the most common form communication access. The printed English language is that common ground.
Now, until *YOU* address the issue of “non-compliance” by Deaf bloggers, Deaf websites, Gallaudet University, etc, for not including ASL video versions of their texted entries then you “might” have a leg to stand on, otherwise trying to spin it in DV’s direction about “mutual respect” would be nothing but a farce and hypocrite response. I’m sorry to say this but you and others need to look into your Deaf mirrors before making those charges of double standards. Go after the Deaf bloggers first for a change because they ought to know better not to include ASL video versions of their texted entries. Right?
DV’s target audience isn’t Deaf people but people with heairng loss and those who want to learn more about deafness.
Now, again, no one is being forced to join DV. No one is being forced to agree with DV’s policy or guidlines.
mcconnell
June 19th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
SG,
I agree that this is out of hand, and transcriptions and subtitling/CC should be optional rather than required. If it is required, then both sides should be required than have one group targeted for this requirement.
This is definitely about respect of personal choice, and blogs/vlogs are definitely personal rather than commercial, which puts a different spin on this whole thing.
Frankly, I feel like I’m repeating myself over and over again. DV feels it should be EXCLUSIVE. Fine. Their loss.
Shelley
June 19th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Let me clarify: optional for personal bloggers and vloggers, but NOT optional for commercial companies, TV companies etc.
Shelley
June 19th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Hi Shelly!
Thanks! Oh yes, I feel you because I also get frustrated like you by trying to reason with them hoping they’d open their mind and start listening to points where they would say, okay.. we can work things out and let’s put it in positive way by encouraging others and leave that as an optional for everyone rather than saying, “you are required to do this!”
I am still hoping to this day, it will happen… hopefully.
-SG
June 19th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Oops.. damn my typo: Shelley not Shelly.
-SG
June 19th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
To some commenters:
Please bear in mind that intelligence and language skills are separate. Albeit lacking writing or reading skills, your deaf child’s IQ may be much higher than yours or than his hearing sibling(s). There are two separate intelligences. One is natural intelligence; the other is developmental intelligence. If your child lacks language skills, it does not mean that he is much stupider than a person who has English proficiency.
I had been a French tutor for many years. I have observed that some deaf students — are you ready? — have Englishphobia (a term I coined at Gallaudet in 1970s), but they have no phobia in French! To find out why they have Englishphobia, you would have to ask them pourquoi.
Jean Boutcher
June 19th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Insisting on the printed English language as a common ground trips when people are reminded that … well, no. It’s not. That’s pretty much where it begins and ends. NO, the printed English language is NOT everyone’s common ground. Period. People who don’t speak or write my language are not doing it out of an obstinate refusal to acknowledge my way as the only right and good way in the universe. They are simply using their own language.
When the hell did we tunnel back into 1900 where people could actually make comments like “This is america! We speak English here!” and expect to be taken seriously? Yall sound like english tourists who go into a bar in the Gaeltacht and look around beady-eyed and suspicious, convinced that no one was spekaing Irish until YOU walked in and they’re just doing it to exclude you. Stop being paranoid.
The Internet is an international thing; people use many languages. Even in the US, people use many languages. ASL is one more. That is where it begins and ends, period.
If your blood pressure goes up every time you see something that isn’t written in English, I sure hope you don’t live in LA or else you’ll spend half your waking life with nosebleeds.
And again, if you aren’t simultaneously demanding that every minority language blog on the net provide English translations of their posts, then you are being hypocritical.
June 19th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Some people are refusing to listen. Their comments clearly show that they are either ignoring, dismissing, or do not understand the issues here. I agree with you, Shel, Mishka Zena, and others. This is about language supremacy, lack of respect for ASL, double standards, and so forth. To me, if they simply disagree but were listening and understood our perspective, that’s one thing,but that’s not happening here. Shelley has rebutted McConnell’s point about Gallaudet, NTID, etc, repeatedly, but he keeps saying the same thing over and over, completely ignoring Shelley’s point. That’s his MO, unfortunately. Let’s just go forth and do our own thing. Those who want to do both ASL and English, fine. Those who want to do one language only, fine. It’s no use talking with certain people who refuse to truly hear us.
June 19th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Mike,
PSE is a misnomer. The correct term is
Signed English. “PSE” was coined by Linguist
Dr. James Woodward in 1970s. Two inquisitive minds RE-EXAMINED Woodward’s book and corrected his term, PSE.
June 19th, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Shelley,
It’s pretty obvious that DV wants to be inclusive so that everyone that shows up there will be able to understand. That also includes hearing parents and deaf people that do not know signs. IT’s simple as that.
Like, many other said in LaRonda’s post, let it be.
If you don’t like it, it’s your decision. The rules are there for a reason. The only set back is that you might not be able to submit your ASL videos to DV without captions, etc. At least there is an aggregator that you still can partake in. Others might decide to partake in all aggregators by meeting that requirement.
I don’t have time to caption or subtitle the music videos I find for my blogs. But, because I want it to be accessible for everyone, I have always added streaming lyrics or find music videos that have subtitles in them. Others might not see the need for it, to each its own.
June 19th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Very few people are in self-delusion big time, refusing to hear the others. The majority are saying that DV is not inclusive and even I, a oral deaf person who sign fluently, agree with their POV. What’s more, the hearing people and Seek Geo also see the exclusivity.
We call it as we see it.
June 19th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Jean,
I completely agree with you about difference between natural IQ and developmental IQ, AND Englishphobia. I, too, have seen Englishphobia in both Deaf children and adults. Their feeling more comfortable in learning French could be due to these factors, in my humble opinion:
1) Deaf children in anglophonic countries have experience language oppression by the English, BUT not by the French language, so they don’t feel as threatened.
2) French and ASL is similar in some respects i.e.: adjectives usually comes after nouns, so there’s not too much of a jump there.
There are other factors, but for some reason they escape me right now…battle fatigue? (doffing my camouflage cap)
Do you have any research connected with this? I’m quite fascinated especially since I live in Ontario, full of both anglophones and francophones…being next door to la province francophonie.
Hope I didn’t mutilate French too badly
Merci beaucoup!
Shelley
June 19th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
SG,
As for your hope, I’m hoping the same thing.
As for your typo. I get lots of that… illiteracy a factor in that? JUST KIDDING!!!
Shelley
June 19th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Jean it makes a lot of sense. I do have some Deaf friends who feel so incompetent with written English that they actually refuse to use e mails, prefering to use VP. One can see why VRS are so popular, compared to the traditional TTY and Internet Relay Services using printed English.
Seek Geo, please don’t feel bad. I have always thought what you do with your vlogs are terrific, taking the time to caption it for the non ASL users. I wish I have your stamina and energy so I can do the same thing, too. Unfortunately not every Deaf people have good English skills. Too bad some narrow-minded people are too arrogant to see that.
June 19th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Ok, Mishkazena, what about DVTV? They don’t provide access to anyone but ASL only? Is that inclusive? Did other deaf people that do not do vlogs or are not capable of doing vlogs cried foul? I don’t remember seeing any of that. It was DVTV’s decision to only allow video responses. Their decision. Their call. And I accepted their “guidelines.”
June 19th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Mike,
You’re missing the point. You kept telling that nobody is forcing them into Deaf Village. That is NOT the case, dammit.
THE WHOLE POINT IS: If any Deaf vloggers want to submit their vlogs without captions or transcription, YOU THE DEAF VILLAGE IDIOTS SHUT THE DOOR ON THEM! Since you and Elizabeth claim that you both know ASL, why can’t you interpret those vloggers? Oh right….it takes time and effort, eh? Oh of course, it’s pretty much same with us attempting to do the captions while trying to translate from ASL to English. Huh? Hmmm?
Well, I still triple dog dare you and Elizabeth to do ASL Vlogs! I’m not kidding. I mean it. You’re so friggin’ coward to take up that dare, I know so.
Misha
June 19th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Where is one for Deaf people ?
All are for hearing people using spoken English.
Consequently, the Deaf Video TV is the Deaf Youtube Version.
Deaf Video TV makes it clear in their guidelines that they are not inclusive which is far different from DV. DV is claiming to be inclusive. Deaf Video doesn’t claim to be that.
Are you saying that Deaf people cannot sign in their own place?
Are you saying that Deaf people do not have any right to their own language?
As that’s what I am consistently hearing from you and several others
Again this all boils down to cultural and linguistic minority
June 19th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Mishka makes a point about DVTV, Candy. This is the Deaf version of “Little Italy”, “ChinaTown”. They don’t claim nor do they push diversity and inclusivity on others.
DV does, and its guidelines contradict its mantra of diversity and inclusivity.
It does indeed boil down to cultural and linguistic oppression by the language of the majority when the guidelines are one-sided.
Do let it be.
Shel
June 19th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Candy…
In regards of DVTV, it’s a deaf version of hearing’s YouTube. However, we can put up the captions in our videos, BUT we can’t even put up the captions in the comment videos. They don’t even work that way. But it’s not a big deal to DVTV vloggers because it’s more of ASL friendly videos rather than written blogs. It’s each Deaf’s choice/preference to put up their vlogs/blogs on DeafRead OR/AND DeafVideo.
Misha
June 19th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
But, if we all took the easy road in life, what would happen?
We’d start wandering around demanding that everyone who spoke a language that we’re not native or fluent in post transcripts of their discussions in our language so we wouldn’t have to pry ourselves up off our lazy butts and learn something new in order to participate. Can’t have that.
June 19th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Thanks Shelley and MishkaZena!
Hi Candy!
I don’t know if I would want to compare DeafVideo.tv, honestly I don’t see that way because they did not say in their guideline that captions are NOT allowed because I know if that’s the case, I’d be upset. So, they welcome every videos regardless if its not captioned or captioned as long as it is using a sign language regardless if it’s ASL, SEE, BSL, and more then that leaves up to rest of viewers to watch or move on.
With DeafVillage, that is different situation because they “required” to provide captions/transcripts which means they will not welcome ones without. They knew only if they use “encourage” for others to provide subtitles or transcripts then everyone will be happy because it is an optional but they choose not to and decide to be dick about it, just my two cents.
I’m type of person that likes to welcome everyone, no way I would exclude some groups at all and I like the idea of open to ALL viewers and up to them to watch/read or move on.
-SG
June 19th, 2008 at 5:42 pm
Well, if one wants to argue inclusive and exclusive then yeah, I’m gonna point to DVTV. Actually, I don’t see anything wrong with DVTV having their own site. It’s not a problem. If they make their own rules and makes it harder for deaf people who do not know ASL to understand the videos over there, so be it. I’m not gonna be making a big deal over it. Just pointing out things.
____________
Hey SG, Not yet, but there are already people over there asking DVTV to forbid a video similar to what Mike McConnell did.
Like you, I’d like to welcome everyone too. Yet, we all have rules and guidelines we have to follow or not partake it, whether we like it or not.
_________
And if anyone agrees with “Let It Be” mantra that is now going around. Then, just let it be.
It’s obvious that the “thought process” among some people are different than others based on what really means most to them. For DV, they want inclusiveness. Meaning, they want everyone, to be able to understand an ASL video, thus the captioning, etc requirement. Whereas, certain deaf people sees it as “rejection.”
Having it to be an optional thing isn’t a bad idea, then again, it would not serve their purpose to have their site inclusive to ALL. Inclusive to readers who visit their site, that is.
I understand where they are coming from and I do understand the feeling most of you have. Like others said, let it be.
Finally, if they did not make it a requirement, how many of you will be submitting your vlogs over there? Seriously, I wonder.
June 19th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
[…] - A True Village? Nay! DeafRead, Deaf Village, and Aggregators Let’s support closed captions! Wait! Blogs Aren’t Fully Accessible, Either! My Reason to find this Deaf Village’s Silly Policy….. Wait! Blogs Aren’t Fully […]
June 19th, 2008 at 6:06 pm
Mishkazena,
You are twisting a lot of things here. No one is saying deaf people do not have a right to their own language. Let’s not get off tangent here.
I’m not saying that either. Jessh! I use it all the time and am fortunate that I’m fluent in it. It’s not about taking away their language. It’s nothing like that at all.
It’s about making sure that hearing parents of deaf children, late deafened adults, Oral deaf who do not know ASL, etc etc etc are able to understand everything in DV. That is being inclusive. I look at it as their way to make sure that ALL readers will understand everything within the village. (Don’t start this “ASL” users don’t understand English, because that is a cop-out.)
It’s not about rejection either. I mean, If it was, I’d know about it and I’d be like….doing another one of those adios blog. Trust me, they are not rejecting ASL deaf people. That much, I do know.
Ok, I’m done here.
Peace Out~
June 19th, 2008 at 6:40 pm
First of all, I find it QUITE convenient that some here are now saying oh, the average 4th grade Deaf reader is a myth. I have seen those exact same people go all over the blogosphere, proclaiming that statistic as evidence of why bi-bi doesn’t work, and why deaf residential schools suck.
Talk about inconsistency and hypocrisy.
The simple fact is, as MishkaZena said, DeafVideo has never claimed to be inclusive. DV, on the other hand, claims to be, but the guidelines contradict that. That is a world of difference, and to compare those two is like comparing apples and oranges!
June 19th, 2008 at 7:33 pm
Agreed, DP
Shel
June 19th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
Well-put, Pundit.
June 19th, 2008 at 11:19 pm
I actually don’t care if the “4th grade reader” thing is a myth. Like I’ve said repeatedly elsewhere, when writing for government use, I’ve been told to use a 6th grade writing level. For elected officials!
If the writing on most blogs is any indication, most hearing people barely have a mother tongue and write at no better level themselves. Why single out deaf kids? Hearies are freakin illiterate, and with no excuse.
June 20th, 2008 at 12:55 am
Ummm The bottom line is EVERYONE is welcomed .. I had seen some vlogs in DVTV from the other countries. Are they required to do the subtitle for us? No .. They don’t read and write English! At least I can understand their sign language. Not most of it … but I am fascinated by their sign language such as Turkey, British, and more . I had seen some of their vlogs. Don’t forget today is 2000 - Diversity is very important. We need to be respected here.
Of course many hearies are terrible in writing .. so I am not only one here. I grew up wary of my own writing skills. ( I still do) I often got criticized by my teachers, parents and etc … A month ago, My parents STILL corrected some grammar mistakes of the email that was sent to them. They printed it out and discussed this with me .. I was like ugh .. not again! I told them I typed too fast or I was in hurry and blah blah.. See … I consider this is oppression. They don’t realized how much I had been thru growing up with the speech therapy, corrected my English writing and so on. Pah I learned ASL … I finally can express in ASL freely. Deafvideo/DeafRead are supposed to be safe haven for everyone here.
June 20th, 2008 at 3:47 am
Mishka we KNOW wha tproblems the ASL user faces, but NON-AS Lusers face problems too, one, is ASL users refusing to give out access, when they are able, what have we done to deserve this selective bi-linguality they express ? I woul doffer you access in the means I know you cna follow (Captions/text), because I cannot offer you ASL, so it’s my fault ?
June 20th, 2008 at 11:20 am
MM, unlike you, others tried to minimize the severity of the some ASL user’s literacy problems. I’ve worked with many Deaf people enough to see that their writing will not do justice like their ASL.
You think they are refusing. You are wrong. Some cannot provide quality translation, just like you cannot with ASL translations
Well, you can find someone to translate your blogs for ASL. I’ve helped some Deaf vloggers with their blogs several times.
If they are being mandated to provide translation, it would be sensible to require translation from the blogs, too. Otherwise this won’t be fair for them, don’t you agree?
That’s why it’s important to use the word encourage rather than the word mandate, for ALL vlogs and blogs. Otherwise this becomes discriminatory and exclusive against one particular group
June 20th, 2008 at 11:44 am
Can someone please explain to me how people can state that ASL does not provide universal access and keep a straight face?
HELLO. If you have EYES, you can learn ASL. ENGLISH and other spoken languages are the ones with restricted access for deaf people. I mean, what the HELL? And Candy goes off about how DV wants people to have access to ASL vlogs — as long as they don’t have to learn it. Which they can all do much more easily than deaf people learning English since oh … THEY HAVE EYES.
When it comes to deaf people, spoken language is the more restrictive one. Period. the only way in which English is less restrictive is that it’s more politically powerful — and once you use that definition, you are moving into the realm of politically based oppression. There is just no way around that.
BEG and I talk all the time — she’s oral-deaf and we’re both learning ASL. English is good enough, but it’s signing that really puts us on an equal footing, and not just because we’re both learners. Because we can both do it equally well. We are both limited by nothing but our own intellectual abilities. We can’t exactly have conversations about complex topics yet, but there are either very few barriers, or those that are present are shared equally between both of us. (For example, instead of one of us being able to carry on a conversation in the car adn the other having trouble, neither of us can sign in the car. We can both talk to one another from clear across the room, which is good. And we can both talk to one another in a loud restaurant, where before she had the advantage because of her lipreading.)
ASL IS the language that presents the fewest barriers both for deaf people and for those of us who want to communicate with deaf people. I WANT to communicate with BEG and other deaf people I’ve met, so I GET OFF M ASS AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. I meet them halfway. I learn something new. And it’s a lot easier for me to learn to sign than it is for a deaf person to learn to talk because — HELLO. DEAF. SOUND NOT GOOD, okay?
My GAWD, people can be such hardheads sometimes. If you really care about someone, you’ll put the effort into learning how to communciate with them, especially when it’s far less effort for you to learn their way than it is for them to learn yours. It’s just easier for a sighted hearing person to use ASL than for a deaf person to use English. That’s where it begins and ends. It’s damend funny how some people supposedly care so much about making ASL “accessible,” right up to the point where it would involve effort on their part.
June 20th, 2008 at 11:53 am
… ASL users refusing to give out access …
How? How are they blocking you from learning ASL? You can find tons of FREE resources all over the net to learn ASL, and lots of places have classes and stuff. There’s the Starbucks meetings all over the place. ASL users have bent over backwards to encourage people to learn that language. If you want to study it, you will be deluged in resources. What — are they breaking your arms or putting a blindfold over your face or something?
JESUS. You really need to learn more about other minority languages; I am hearing exactly the same thing here that I’ve heard all over the place elsewhere, chapter and verse. Welsh and Irish language boards have FREE classes, extensive FREE online classes, FREE resources out the wazoo … and people still whine that they are using their languages only to exclude. They sit their lazy backsides in their recliners, whine that they’re being excluded, but never get the hell up and make an effort, when the whole damned world is bending over backward to make it as easy as possible for them. The support networks for people who want to learn these languages, and ASL, are absolutely vast. They do everything short of drilling a hole in your skull and pouring the language into your head. And that’s still nto enough for some people — you’d still rather just sit there and gather dust and bitch that you might have to lift a finger to participate.
Food won’t leap into your mouth and chew itself, either. Stop complaining that it’s hard and start putting out the effort. It won’t make your brain melt to get some new data into it, and if you REALLY value interacting with ASL users, you’d think it a worthwhile investment.
*exasperated sigh*
June 20th, 2008 at 12:10 pm
*chuckles* All I can say to you, Janis… is that we sure as heck need more hearing people like you!
June 20th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
*wiping spilt coffee off computer desk* *wiping coffee spit off my chin*
Janis, I had to laugh at the way you worded your excellent soapbox message… at the cost of some pretty good coffee.
I couldn’t have said it better… this message has more impact coming from a hearing person than from a deaf person.
I echo DP’s comment (117)
Shel
June 20th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
*grins broadly* Well said, Janis. I agree with DP, we need more hearing people like you to back us up. I do agree with everything you’ve said in there, Janis. Hell, we Deaf have to jump through the hoops to try to learn English, speech reading skills, etc.
Mike McConnell, you think I’d forget about you. No, sireee, I still quadruple dog dare you to use ASL vlog. *ducks and runs away*
Misha M-I-S-H-A What does that spell?
MISHA!
dammit!