Speechreading and speaking are only accessory skills
How can we teach oral methods?
Do we need ASL?
Why oral is an accessory?
Posted on August 7th, 2007 by egbertpress
Filed under: Uncategorized
How can we teach oral methods?
Do we need ASL?
Why oral is an accessory?
Posted on August 7th, 2007 by egbertpress
Filed under: Uncategorized
I do appreciate for your clarification of what is an accessory! I agree with you what you have said about ASL which is very fountain of the language! That Deaf child will grasp many things that are new to him or her but by the way when that child become growing and will learn to be rationale by taking a serious figure out why or what or how then he or she will become rationale when he or she reaches at the age of 18, Oral is not easy to do. You are right one way. I am not qualified to be an oralist, I am very fluent in ASL and I am not DOD. But I already have been exposed by more than one language from ethic community, and may I correct you English is most important, I answer no but English is very useful for anything at same time for your information. English is the most difficult language in the world because of phonetic phrase that most Deaf childs would not understand but only ASL can benefit that Deaf child. Yet Deaf child will learn English through ASL.
“video is currently not available. Please try again”
will try again later on soon, your vlog sounds interesting
I was able to see your video after second try.
That’s a good one, thank you for sharing. Agreed with everything what you said!
Do you have research resources to back what you shared? If so, would love to see ‘em so I can share ‘em with parents, etc.
OH MY GOSH. That is a wonderful explanation. Caption this. Transcribe it. Do something to GET THE WORD OUT to hearing parents, hearing teachers, hearing administrators. I think when you illustrate your point with examples of how everything is limited when you don’t have a language to explain the world to a child it really makes an impact on people. I think that hearing parents imagine their child in this isolated world until they make them conform to hearing norms and speak/lipread, when really if you ONLY give them that it isolates them much more. I remember when I saw Mr. Holland’s Opus for the first time…..I was young, and the part where they’re in the kitchen and Coal wants something, and the mother tries to get him to tell her what he wants, and he can’t, and they both end up crying and the mother screams “I WANT TO TALK TO MY SON!” That was powerful. That shows how well the oral approach works as your ONLY tool - but then at the end, Coal was talking just fine to his dad AFTER he learned sign.
Give these parents your stories. Make that impact on them over and over again, as many times as it takes. You guys (DBC) are doing a beautiful thing. How can we support you more?
Someone talking real sense at last, make signing vids ACCESSIBLE, if parents or anyone else doesn’t get the signing message you only have yourselves to blame….. the continued ‘exclusivity’ of the signing world is the reason people won’t accept it where it counts, it appears an ISOLATING medium, you don’t give people an ‘in’ so they stay, OUT. Are sign users waiting for hearing to learn ? a long wait then… few seem to be displaying bi-linguality, and refusing to make sign accessible to those that don’t know it.. you cannot make people learn your language, you have to encourage them… the onus is on you… You are talking to people who know ASL, but the message, goes nowhere else….
Hey, John, you did well on your video! :~D Hands waving!
Yes, Kate, you’re right about the need to transcribe John’s video, so that hearing parents can access to what he has shared with us.
SusanA,
We do need research on this idea about Data Flow Rate and will need someone to write a grant to start this research.
Or someone can donate money to DBC (http://www.cad1906.org) and tell them that the money goes to Data Flow Rate research or towards to a grant writer to start this research.
Kate and MM,
I do have a video with my voice but not sure about publishing it and maybe will re-do the video to more of a professional scale and put on my website and maybe on DBC’s website if they want it.
PR,
thank you for inspiration comment
John F. Egbert
Let you know that I did watched your video clip about accessory and foundation! You have a very good point about those issues! I did looked up the dictionary under “Accessory” from this yahoo link:
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/accessory;_ylt=As9R5xX8hruZVhS.58NuM1usgMMF
I agreed with you about Data Flow Rate is very IMPORTANT because of the baby need to develop their own early age cognitive language!
Thanks so much for your concern with the Deaf babies!
Shawn
MM,
Nobody is “excluding” you are anyone else from learning ASL, just as no one is excluding you from learning French, or Russian or Swahili.
It’s just a simple fact of life that people cannot speak two languages at the same time and we don’t have unlimited resources to produce transcripts, translations or voiceovers at the drop of a hat.
There are many facts of life which seem to be obstacles when we take a narrow view, but are actually the facts of existence that enable the opportunity to be alive and to experience progress. For example, the reality of the geography of the earth means that people are separated by continents. Yet the continents provide vastly varied resources that we can use.
Variation is a positive, not a negative feature of the world and human existence. It’s even more important than that. It’s a necessity for life and progress.
Your Vlog makes sense a lot that has become influent on hearing people and even hearing parents of deaf children who need to help about understanding ASL and its access for deaf babies. You said Accessory to oral, but I consider about there will be accessory to cue language that is best for deaf children.
I am honest with you and am telling you my story. I remember that when I was a deaf child in the deaf school, I could talk Spanish orally and could talk Spanish in sign language. What was it that made me access to structure language. I didn’t know what bilingual meant. I thought I used to use Total communication that belonged to oral and sign language.
Many years after, I got older and became wiser and I did researching about Latin deaf people expanding actively Bilingual between Sign language and Oral. My Jaw already dropped out while Latin deaf people continued to fight to access Spanish language primarily then Oral language second. Total communication doesn’t fit in language to be identified. For this reason, I realize that I was in fact bilingual between Spanish sign language and oral language as a child, and I accessed oral for hearing people and accessed signing language for deaf communication. I wasn’t comfortable using my oral language with the deaf people. I was in favor of signing language to deaf.
I congratulated deaf Latin people who have continued to fight bilingual education from many countries with the goal to eliminate it TC and 1880 Milan.
fight to access Spanish sign language primarily then Oral language second.
Interesting since I am deaf as ASL well while I am living in an oral community, I can see how they were, then now their result turned out as frustrated. One of my very good friend’s husband is a strong orally, it turned out a harder for him since he has not been learned about ASL at all! Plus he could not able to communicate with ASL or Oral with gesture, it is diffcult. That part of your explaination has came out as FACT! I can understand that. I am glad that I learned ASL first before I learned anything like English, SEE, etc.
E X A C T L Y ……
I wish I had learned ASL as a baby! As a great curious young teen,
I had always wanted to learn many new things out there unfortunately I was stuck as a Deaf Oral Puppeteer! I finally learned ASL as I came to Gallaudet when I was 19!
I’m obliged (Brian), the fact reamins ASL or BSL using deaf people are preaching to the converted. Deafread does, It’s a great site for deaf to widen experieinces and even allow hearing in to have a look around,but this demands the sign user provides access, not just to hearingpeople dipping their toes in to see what we get upto, but deaf people who DON’T use sign language as a prime medium (Acquired deaf etc),who may be on the border of considering, is sign worth it ? because a lot don’t feel it is. The stance of learn it or stay outside, will do nothing to enhance wider access for the deaf or encourage others to come in to it. Pride is one thing, but we know what follows it…. If deaf want equality, then they too have to provide the means for it to work… It is a basic point to make, no-one is bagging sign language,but unless you want it totally to stop with you…
MM,
It is not fair to create a double standard and claim that Deaf (Americans) are engaging in “exclusivity.” You would not say the same thing about French people creating Web sites in French, or Germans, or speakers of Swahili, etc.
It’s a fact of life that the language group made up of those who use American Sign Language exists, just like it’s a fact of life that continents exist or that mountains and valleys exist. Some people live on one continent, some people live on another continent. Some people live in the mountains. Some people live in the valley.
You would not say that Europeans are “exclusive” because they live in Europe and that they choose to “isolate” themselves from the people who live in North America.
Really, lets quit accusing Deaf people of being exclusive. It’s unfair. It’s a double standard and it does not conform to reality. It is FALSE political rhetoric intended to oppress culturally Deaf people.
You must allow culturally Deaf people their prerogative. It is their prerogative to create transcripts and translations of their blog posts according to which goals they are attempting to achieve and according to how much money and time is available.
It’s absurd to criticize culturally Deaf people for not providing a translation for 100% of all blog posts. They do not have the money or the time. Right now, they are engaged in a process of organizing themselves politically. Not every post made on Deaf Read or this blog is geared to the general reader.
Don’t tell me that Deaf people are “preaching to the choir.” They are entitled to communicate with themselves in their own native language without having to censor themselves due to lack of time and money to create transcripts.
When time and money and circumstances permit (according to the goals that are at hand) then transcripts will be created. Otherwise, there will not be a transcript.
How could it be otherwise?
There is an interplay of exclusivity and inclusivity in everything in nature and society. We cannot wave a magic wand and have everything we wish.
I find your rhetoric to be offensive and oppressive toward culturally Deaf people. They have every right to exist, just as the French exist, or any other group of people on earth exists. If you want to join, then join. If you don’t, then don’t. Otherwise, you will have to take what is offered and accept the nature of reality and refrain from oppressing others.
When they want to acheive a particular goal and provide a transcript to reach a particular group, then it will be done. It’s as simple as that.
I thought you were talking about access, my mistake…
Brian Riley,
As I understood it, the point was not to curtail deaf exchange, but to transcribe or make accessible where possible. I, as an oral deaf person considering taking up my local sign language, cannot access this video. I gleaned from the comments that it was about something which I could most likely relate to and support, but I cannot access it.
How’s that for irony?
Like many who are deaf but not really part of the cultural thing, I despair at the immediate assumptions that anyone who asks for access is attacking deaf culture, it’s as if they don’t want people to know what they are saying, or could it really be they feel they are on safer ground just talking to each other ?
At least that way there is considerably less opportunity for others to come in on the debates and perhaps question them, of course they could ADD to them as well, but this seems to be ignored. Whatever the real reason it seems they are determined to keep most others out of it. I wouldn’t for a minute, suggest those deaf that have issues with text or English or expertise to provide it, should be made to do so, but clearly many here are capable but ‘Can’t be bothered’, what would happen if people ‘can’t be bothered’ to give them access ?
The attitude of learn it or go away, is deterring others who could give the cultural deaf a real impetus and support,they might learn sign too ! I know a lot of deaf and HI people who do not sign and they ARE interested in joining with others to put forward a united front as our access issues if nothing else is common to us all.
The D,d thing HAS to go…. it’s a failed concept, it took no account of zealots who used it to divide people. We read of coalitions, but they appear very one-sided coalitions. Rather then encourage the oral users in, and form mutual approaches, they seem determined to drive it out, which polarises.
Deaf PEOPLE who oralise, aren’t trying to destroy sign language, we shouldn’t be attacking them as well.
MM,
Please read what I wrote above! Would you demand from the French that they translate every French book into English? If they didn’t would you accuse them of trying to exclude you?
You are attempting to impose a double standard.
Not so, I wasn’t insisting those that can’t must, but those that can do…. if only to help other deaf people…
MM.
No, you misunderstand me. My long comment above has nothing to do with whether or not a blogger is capable of creating a transcript of his or her own blog. By saying this, you are showing that you didn’t read what I wrote above.
When I say “double standard”, I mean that you are attempting to hold different standards for culturally Deaf Americans than you would hold for any other culture in the world. You do not criticize French people if they do not translate all of their books.
Culturally Deaf Americans exist. It’s a fact that cannot be erased by you saying that the big-D, little-d distinction should be eliminated. American Sign Language exists. It is here to stay. The people who use ASL are just like any other linguistic group in the world and they should not be subjected to double standards of any kind.
I would if they did deaf vids I couldn’t follow… The issue of D,d is very contentious, maybe NOT to you in America. I hate it there’s no two ways about it,and it has nothing to do with culture or sign language,but the fact some people are using it to divide us all..
It was very naive to develop this concept and not take into account zealots would manipulate it. The fact there is no clear way to identify the deaf means we shouldn’t be trying to ID them by stating they are D or d. What we got was ‘Deaf people have a culture and a language…”, “deaf people can hear with hearing aids… and haven’t” !
Apart from anything else this is totally FALSE. Deafread abounds with deaf people who are not part of the cultural system and quite happy as they are and certainly do not ’suffer’ because they are not either,they DO get annoyed they are viewed as some sort of ’sub-culture’ hanging on to ASL/BSL coat tails, they provide the BULK of people with hearing loss in the world (and in America too).
Perhaps the cultural view is really all about self-protection, a lack of confidence culture could survive in mainstream ? hence the reluctance, opposition even, of transcribing what they are saying in many cases… perhaps determined if you want ‘in’, you learn sign first, an uncompromising stance, they think will pay off ? what’s to stop the bulk of HoH or ‘deaf’ from going it alone and ignoring and opposing ?
If they do their numbers suggest culture would not flourish. Far better the deaf fight under one banner, and not with each other. I think that is common sense… There seems a lot of paranoia parts of the ‘Deaf’ world everyone else is out to get them…
There’s no double-standard, it’s all about access for deaf people regardless which ’side’ they bat for… some will support culture, some won’t, we are all, deaf….
MM,
Cultures and languages evolve in society over long periods of time. This is the way that human beings share ideas with each other and communicate. It is fundamentally an inclusive process.
People who do not take the time to learn the language are excluding themselves by their own choice.
Even worse is when someone attempts to deny the existence of the culture or a language by claiming that it is only a “concept†that was “developed.â€
Who is denying it’s existence ? I am simply stating there are deaf who aren’t part of it, and hearing who want into it. There are many physiological and other medical reasons (and choice), that prevent a deaf person signing, basically the issue is NOT about sign language or even culture, but communication. These other deaf see it a lot more simplistically than you do might.
Sign is an integral part of some deaf people’s communication, but it is NOT a primary part of every deaf person’s means of communicating. That is not to say we don’t care WHAT the sign user says or does, I wouldn’t be here if I didn’t care. and I feel, deaf people are NO different to anyone else in being curious and wanting to know what other people say or think too.
The learn it or go away approach , will simply not work, you need to encourage people, not deter them by throwaway remarks you just lost 50 people who might have gone on to support the deaf commmunity….blah blah etc, you walk away….This is pointless. Many BSL users CANNOT sign in ASL so they should go away too ? you would operate a sectarian approach to sign ?
MM,
You said;
“Sign is an integral part of some deaf people’s communication, but it is NOT a primary part of every deaf person’s means of communicating.”
You are wrong!
It should be;
Oral is an integral part of some deaf people’s communication, but it is NOT a primary part of every deaf person’s means of communicating.
Deaf people are visual oriented type of a person. To learn speech/oral method is an accessory education, not a primary part of education for deaf people regardless if the deaf person uses hearing aids or other aids.
John F. Egbert
MM,
Please re-read the comment I posted (above) on August 9th, 2007 at 4:59 am.
I’m struggling to understand why the hostility and defensive comments are coming at me frankly ! Each person’s communication is down to them and theirs mostly, surely we would never want to challenge that concept ?
I thought EVERYONE was visually oriented (excepting the blind). The difference is only degree. We are discussing communications not vision. We all know deaf people AREN’T just born that way, many acquire it, often after a hearing education, they will not approach communication the way someone who is born deaf or had a deaf education would.
They will sign, they may perhaps not use the ‘norm’ of signing e.g. ASL or BSL but S.E or SSE etc. They will not gravitate towards a deaf culture either, their culture is already established as hearing people, as is their oral approach to communication. The deaf part then becomes an issue to cope with and is not an ‘integral’ part of them as people.
I am not sure deaf people have a right to meddle in someone else’s educational approaches to be honest, and most parents tend to take professional advice as opposed to deaf group. if your child is deaf then that is fine, I’d take offence, as would you, if someone else came into our lives demanding we take this approach or that approach to educate the deaf child.
As for oral/speech being an accessory this seems a gross generalization, many deaf talk, and choose to, the degree of clarity isn’t the issue. As ‘Deaf’ people mostly only socialize and interact with the same people as they, then I cannot see, where the issue is, they aren’t being forced into situations they don’t come into contact with ! As adults they do what they wish.
Children neither hearing nor deaf decide what they learn or how they learn it. There are curriculum’s that decide that. Perhaps Americans go to school and pick and choose whether they learn that or not, it’s different here in the UK. Do you not think, the obsessions with oralism/deafhoods/D,d and such, are taking too much toll on the deaf community, who could f r better use that energy expended to improve their lot instead ?
I’d back anyone to decide what they want for their own child, I am not sure we have the right to influence or demand others fall into line… what works for you, may not work for someone else. Do parents of deaf children then sue deaf groups for insisting sign only is used ? or these children grow up signing and feel it has isolated them so do the same ? if it happens it will happen in America….
I am IMpressed there are many able deaf people about the world, and DEpressed they spend all their time in arguing and taking offence on everything instead. That there is a whole deaf ‘industry’ evolving around terms and such is astounding.. what IS the point of that ?
MM,
We were fine til came along Alexander Graham Bell and the 1880 Milan that made an agreement to take out the sign language in education for the deaf all over the world. Those hearing people (AGB and people at Milan 1880) colonialized us to learn a language using verbal method in the last 100 years.
Do you support that ideology?
Alexander Graham Bell was an eugenicist. Adolf Hilter admired AG Bell and wrote letter to him!
Adolf Hilter created the Holocaust of 6 million Jews.
And Alexander Graham Bell created the Holocaust of American Sign Language.
And it seems alright for Jews to stand up and make sure that it never happens again.
But it seems that many people, (even some deaf people) don’t think that Deaf people shouldn’t have any dignity to speak up for what was taken away, our original language…ASL.
MM,
Don’t you understand that deaf babies need to be exposed to a natural, visual language from birth?
Don’t change the subject by talking about the parents. That’s an additional issue to be discussed.
WOW WOW Very good answer! This is a perfect answer to this oldest question for a solution. I have been looking for the best answer until you did. Thank you very much! Yes, ASL is a foundation. Agree with you.
Thank you!
Hi…
I wanted to share my opinion about what MM (Aug 13th 3:27am) said:
“I’d back anyone to decide what they want for their own child, I am not sure we have the right to influence or demand others fall into line… what works for you, may not work for someone else. Do parents of deaf children then sue deaf groups for insisting sign only is used ? or these children grow up signing and feel it has isolated them so do the same ? if it happens it will happen in America….”
We are not talking about forcing, demanding or imposing our ASL language to all the deaf children, but that it’s the BEST way, as a FOUNDATION for the deaf babies (as hearing babies are, why not the deaf babies, too?)…We want to ENCOURAGE the parents and educators that if they want the deaf children to be on the same level and not get behind…this is the best way to start with….we are not going to force parents, it’s their choice what they want to do on how to raise them…BUT we want to HELP them, show them the way.
Like many Spanish or other foreign speaking culture in America, they want to teach their children to speak their culture language…it’s their rights….and for the deaf children, it’s their rights to learn ASL as a STARTING POINT to learn as they are visual people, using mainly their eyes, just as I am visual. That’s what John was talking about….give our deaf children a FOUNDATION as their starting point for learning…then after that, up to the parents to send them to learn to speak as an accessory…I wished I had learned ASL FIRST before I spoke….I only spoke 12 words when I entered a deaf school when I was four…I was LOST in the hearing world (my parents was told “NO signing should be permitted in household…my siblings never learned and wished they did…what does that tell you), til I met all the other deaf children (with deaf parents), I picked up ASL from them and my mind GREW! I’m VERY privileged to have known them and truly grateful that they welcomed me to their homes on weekends, what joy I’ve had…life was FULL then.
To me (and I encourage others as well), that ASL is important and SHOULD be the foundation for the deaf…it’s a visual language and we depend on visual arts. We are not against parents’ choice…but they should KNOW more about what a beautiful language we have…and we want them to be aware of it, not avoid it as many org tries to deter them from knowing more.
MM, you said you feel like you’re being attacked, but truthfully from what I read, you instigated it. We are just sharing our feedback and how we can improve to tell more people the importance of raising deaf children. I’m glad that I learned to speak but that should have been done AFTER I learned to communicate in ASL, not the other way around.
Whew, got it off my chest, thanks!
You said it beautifully and clearly and I support you 110% in what you shared. I read your other vlogs and I agreed that some of the vlogs needs to be transcriped, to share with other parents of deaf child/ren as what you shared are informative and important for them to know and understand. Keep on vlogging, John!
One more thing….as I was thinking about this subject, something hit me, we should share this with the parents that are teaching their babies “baby signs”, if they agree that it was a good starting point for their babies to learn ASL, I’m sure they’ll agree that it’s great for deaf babies, then we need their support for our deaf babies…that might be a good ground to start, what do you think? I think Barb DiGi is a great speaker and is a gifted speaker, maybe she can somehow pave the rest of the way and we all pinch in with our different gifts.
For MM:
Ohhhh, another thing that popped my mind…actually, I wanted to clarify what I wanted to say….that John, like he said, is in no way, against Oral, Cue, SEE methods, everyone has a choice….He was not “insisting sign only is used” as you said…which is not what John said. We have been isolated for many years and we do NOT want the children to go through the same thing…and at a later time when their minds are able and ready, teach them other things, accessories, like John explained, such as speech, english, CUE, SEE, whatever, it’s part of learning and growing…not isolating them…what WE went through, that’s isolating us…in other words, “blind” abuse (some people refused to see that we’ve been isolated for so long.)
I remembered very well how I learned swimming but not understand why that or this. I just was “lucky” that I can swim very well. Later on when I had my son going to learn how to swim which called “baby water” That really hit me hard and do not understood how he swam without saying or telling. I asked teacher how baby can stay on his back in water longer. It surprised me it was his breath of air to keep float. If I had asl teacher when I was 7 years old and might understand quickly than what I had in past. Anyway, I went in the pool myself to see how it worked. Wow that s wonderful feeling to understand how I stay floated a long time by my breath. Air out is drowing and air in is up to float, interesting? That’s why I believe in ASL is the most important in my life.