This has been an interesting dialogue. Although I’ve already weighed in with a couple comments over at Toby’s blog where he posted about it here and here, I found that I wanted to examine this in more detail so rather than clutter up a comments section, I’m posting here…
In a nutshell, a deaf woman named Melissa, late to ASL, produced a series of videos, including this one in which she proposes a number of alterations to ASL. In this particular one, she argues that the top/bottom division of signs for gendered words such as mother/father/brother/sister is sexist and proposes alternatives.
Now, I and others reacted mostly with eye-rolling, and I said, in part
…there’s nothing here that isn’t the same kind of thing that SEE, PSE, etc attempted to do and failed; people have been trying to change ASL for over a hundred years and they have not succeeded. Change comes from widespread acceptance by native speakers. I’m reminded by ongoing efforts by various people to create gender neutral pronouns in English like sie, hir, etc — all of which have been wildly successful (not).
Others concurred, for example
I can see her “points” but she does NOT have the power to change ASL. Look at DeafMute - it is something we all discuss and debate with. Not ONE person. Nope. Personally, when I analyze too much into things like “mother” “father” “girl” “boy” If you think too much of it, it is NOT equal but that is how ASL works. I’d never try to change ASL myself…
and
Toby, Melissa is no threat to ASL. For any new signs to be accepted into ASL, it has to be accepted by deaf people consistently, and none of the signs Melissa invented as equalizing male and female roles will ever make it.
And really, I think that about sums it up. Except..
Well there’s always a “but,” isn’t there?
Melissa, in response to Toby’s email, says
It is funny because many deaf people discriminate against me more than hearing people. I find that ironic and it hurts my spirit. I don’t want to be a part of a community that won’t allow me to express new ideas. Or we will never move forward. I am deaf and I am proud of it.
and oh boy can I ever relate to that!. Being oral deaf, not being a native ASL speaker, can really get some crap thrown your way by other deaf people. Why do we do this to ourselves? As I thought about it, though, here’s what I do see:
What did Melissa try to do?
Change ASL, that’s what.
What have hearing people, in particular oral-oriented ones, been doing for the past, oh, 150 years?
That’s right. Stamp out ASL, change it. SEE, PSE, SimCom, oral. Beat the hands of kids trying to use ASL. It makes for a very strong reaction to any attempts to touch ASL on the part of native speakers, as can be seen here:
I find that is very repulsive for her to invent a new sign language, PSL, in order to make her special person. I think she is ignorant. Her new sign language PSL is simply very conspicious to oppress to the deaf communities and ASLWhoa whoa whoa.. PSL is horrible. I am going to email her and STOP this crap. Her signs are stink. That made me real pissed off about this
PSD REALLY SO UGLY !!!!!!!!!!! LEAVE ASL ALONE !!!!!!!!!
I watched her PSL video, my mouth dropped out! It is hard to believe how she change our langauge on her own that she can think it would work for her art! PLUS I noticed her mouth as almost talking more like a strong oral with language sign, it is hard for me to look at them
that really insult. what a sick i can’t even explain cause i only watch half of it and i say what the (beep) is this. i can’t even explain as you just saw it! man that piece of crap!
Those of us who come to ASL late, we don’t have that knowledge. It’s part of a culture we don’t know, a history and tradition that we were denied. It’s easy for us to step into land mines we’re barely aware that exist. We need to, along with learning ASL, learn its history, its complexities. I’m not saying, become “militant Deaf,” but I’m saying there is much more to ASL than “hand movements for words.”
At the same time, think for just a moment. Milan didn’t destroy ASL, Oral teaching didn’t destroy ASL. All the variations of signed English didn’t destroy ASL. ASL hasn’t even changed substantially according to my reading there’s no trouble comprehending ASL in old films. ASL is a language, it will abide. ASL is far stronger than you think.
This kind of vitriol serves no purpose. Come on guys. We’re on the same side of the fence. We’re sitting here learning ASL and if we now and then step on a big fat one, well, we’re like kids learning this language and culture, right? Point us to why it’s a problem, don’t scream us down. Cause then we turn away…
…and we’ve lost some treasures that are part of the complete deaf story…
“Point us to why it’s a problem, don’t scream us down. Cause then we turn away…”
Couldn’t had said it better. People overreacted and attacked the person.
People need to remember that it’s better to attack the idea and not the person. You have to remember that all of us have feelings, the treatment that she received today was uncalled for. It was much, much too personal. The idea itself should had been analyzed and criticized on a more mature level which didn’t make a strong presence today. Instead, people resorted to a low level by behaving like a lynching mob.
Before some of you jump the gun, I’m fluent in ASL and I believe it’s a language on its own. I don’t believe the manual codes developed by “educators” will greatly benefit the children like ASL would. But it’s no excuse to attack a person for bringing up such a concept, the concept should be attacked instead
Hmm but ASL signs have changed, such as signs for countries and whatnot that people thought were too old-fashioned and racist. So if that could change, why not certain other signs right?
I have always thought that the signs for mom/dad etc could possibly be based on sexism as boys have the brains and women well.. don’t have the brains ha. But one could argue that it really is about boys wearing hats and girls wearing bonnets etc. So who knows and really i don’t care that much. I wouldn’t want to have to change these signs, i like it the way it is and i don’t feel “insulted” so…
but to think that ASL has not changed at all, that would be a bit incorrect because it does develop from what I know, and certain signs do change within time. I’m currently reading “Inside Deaf Culture” and there’s one chapter that focuses on this a little bit, especially during the time when ASL was recognized as a legitimate language of its own. It’s a good book! I suggest that you read it. I read their previous book: Deaf in America, it felt a bit repetitive and i already knew most of the things i read but in this one, there was quite a good amount of information that i never knew about the history of Deaf schools, clubs and so on. Quite interesting
p.s I have not checked the original post or videos you are referring to just yet. I personally don’t see the point of developing yet another sign “language”. ASL is beautiful, there doesn’t need to be another language. i’m okay with certain signs being changed, that’s fine with me but a whole new language? Not interested really. BUT it is pretty intresting though how this woman is going so far to develop a language of her own. That is pretty cool but i doubt people would pick it up.
Oh, I didn’t mean to imply it had not changed at all…of course it has changed — within the normal linguistic variation of any language. But it’s still eminently understandable, just as English as spoken by, say, the American Colonists, would still be to us. That’s more what I mean. Despite all the pressure brought to bear on ASL, it has not died out, it has not been significantly altered by it…
Ahhhha okay i understand.
In the book i’m reading, the writers went into depth about the first movies shot on sign language, one which included Gallaudet himself signing! It was pretty interesting to read about how different certain signs were back then and YET were still recongizable. Just certaind etails were different. Apparently signs were much farther away from the body back then… Also for example the sign “Help” back then was apparently where the palm met the elbow instead of the palm meeting the hand as it is now? I really would LOVE to watch these movies. I must get my hands on them somehow! I believe Gallaudet has copies…
I know! I want to see these too. I’m told there might be some copies at a University not too far from me. I’ll have to find out.
When I watched Melissa’s vlog on how she perceived the location of signs that are used to identify male and female, that means it is unequal and dominant. Actually, I don’t think that way. Coming from a deaf family and immersed in ASL environment since birth, gender signs were established to identify based on the appearance of the way both sexes dress back in early 1800’s where heavy emphasis on particular style for men to wear hats and women to wear bonnets just like what Melissa said. The location of a hat happens to be on the forehead but it doesn’t necessarily mean it is dominant in that form. The signs were set up that way based on visual identity as the same way English language was set up by distinguishing between the label of the genders, i.e.; WOman, FEmale, heR, etc. We have to add several letters to the word to represent female and it may be dominant in that sense but does that mean we should omit and make changes to make it more equal between the genders? I think not. It goes the same for ASL.
The problem with Melissa is the way she presented. It seems to me that she is being arrogant (no offense intended) like she is claiming her idea on her own without asking the audience for input and without any of community support. We know very well that no one person can invent a language as it takes a community or culture to develop and evolve a language. I got the impression that she acted and claimed on her own. I am just simply turned off not because of her ideas but the way she presents it. We have fought so hard to keep ASL alive and to make it respectful. ASL was finally recognized as a language only less than half a century. We have fought so hard to maintain ASL in deaf education even today. That’s true that ASL is still here to stay but understand that oralism, “artificial language”, etc. actually played a role in hindering ASL in deaf education and the community. Still today it is a struggle so who needs another artificial language; PSL, that is.
However I am not condoning the way individuals who responded by attacking her or being a bit vulgar. But I do understand their anger because this is perceived as a threat trying to make this “PSL” equivalent to ASL. My suggestion to Mel is not to make any attempts to modify or change ASL. Everyone is entitled to their ideas but we must remember that there will always be negative and positive feedback to any ideas. We also must remember that reaction needs to be more civilized as well. I am really glad that you and Melissa are involved in learning ASL and that is a great thing but for one to attempt to alter it is not.
Absolutely, and it’s a very good distinction here; the language survived but the consequences and costs of pulling it out of our education have been unacceptably high (and yet another reason for people who understand this to be touchy about attempts to alter the language..
Barinthus from http://www.xanga.com/barinthus
To some commenters - if you thought ASL signs MOM and DAD or GIRL and BOY are sexist, wait until you see signs from other countries. ASL has nothing on them.
To browneyedgirl - a good blog as usual. To be a part of Deaf community is to live in a very political loaded environment. This is due to years of oppression and audism so naturally many members of the Deaf community are sensitive about certain things such as attempts to ‘modify’ ASL.
Perhaps this is not a good time to be discussing sexism in ASL? Perhaps we need to focus on more important issues such as how to heal our internal divisions, how to achieve Deafhood, how to better educate hearies about what we are really are, what works best for our children and so on which will lead a better and healthy partnership between the Deaf and hearing worlds? Then we can focus on issues such as sexism in ASL. Look at English-speaking world, they have been arguing about whether if “woman” is sexist and perhaps we all should use “womyn” instead - this has been going on for few decades at least.
Regardless your opinion on what I just suggested above, I want to go back to the sensitivity issue. Many of us often forget what’s the important thing here whenever a person wanting to become one of us accidentally step on a “landmine.” Which is more important - chew them out or saying ok wait, why are we talking about this? Assess intentions here and if the newcomer is willing to stay openminded or whatever, then explain.
One more thought - if someone wants to discuss ASL sexism and suggest alternative signs or whatever, that person would have much more credibility if he or she was already fully assimilated into the Deaf community.
Ha ha, you know I thought the same thing starting out in ASL (I already know English and Spanish). It doesn’t have gendered pronouns (him, her, etc)! It doesn’t have gendered adjectives to match the person (cansada for her, cansado for him)! So, yeah.
*gapes like a dork*
It is pretty much ungendered, isn’t it?
Dur.
*goes back to feeling dopey for the moment*
I just watched the video on “PSL” and I am just sick to my stomach! First of all, her name sign broke an ASL rule, then she was mouthing alot of English words when she was signing (Sim Com).
I have studies linguistic of ASL at Gallaudet, teaching ASL at university level in a program of 800+ students and with other 10 Deaf teachers of ASL.
“WOMAN” - in English, that is sexist as well. “MAN” — WO is added with the idea that woman needs a man to be a woman. And do you see hearing people trying to come up with “People English Language”???? I strongly doubt it!
Lastly, those signs violated many of the ASL rules so I hope I won’t ever see those again!
If Melissa really wants to be embraced by Deaf people, she got to ACCEPT ASL…
do you see hearing people trying to come up with “People English Language”????
Actually, yes you do. Spelling reforms and postulates about new grammar rules are constantly being proposed. Everyone has proposed spelling reform, for example, from Noah Webster (who was successful at it) to Ben Franklin to George Bernard Shaw.
Arguments about whether proscription or popular usage determines English are constant and neverending. They’ll always be with us. Just go into any English department and ask them about the subjunctive mood, then step back and watch the fur fly.
I think her basic premise, that gendered signs for male and female are based on sexism and dominance, and that’s why male signs are above female signs, is incorrect. It’s just tradition that way back in the 1800s men and women were wearing specific headwear so that’s what the gendered signs are based on. Nothing horrible about that. I agree with whoever said that we’ve changed our signs for other countries because they were racist or we learned that those countries have their own signs for their country and we should try to use them. But I don’t think there’s any problem with our gendered signs for male and female as they are. Personally, as someone who gets left and right mixed up, and has a problem with directionality in signs, I’d have a difficult time remembering that the left side is female and the right side is male. or is it the other way around? jeez.
Now my mother isnt deaf but she is a certified asl interpreter and is culturally deaf. She was in a meeting and one of her staff suggested PSL!!!! she didnt know what is was and researched it and was appalled by it. For the first thing Most deaf people dont get a good education (no offense to the deaf that do but it is a truth). They reley very much on sight and the signs in ASL are sight oriented not “stereotypes”. ASL is made so a small child could understand a basic meaning of what some one was saying with out mutch knowlage of asl
I happened on this blog quite by accident. I’m not deaf, but I am a logophile with many different languages under by belt… The discussion here reminds me a lot of what happened with Esperanto. All natural languages come with illogical structural baggage. Some feel that illogicalities give a language character while others feel that they impair communication. One thing is certain… no one can force a language to change, even if the change is for the better.
Esperanto makes perfect sense, but it would require too much effort to get a country to shift their base communication as a whole. The metric system makes more sense than American standard units or Imperial units, but an attempt to bring it in to the US failed.
Making a language change requires sociological engineering on a scale only possible in Hollywood and subcultures like those surrounding sports, goth and computing. Fo’ shizzle.